Natural Birth? You can do it!

[boogs]

My sisters' due in two days and it's got me thinking about my labour with dd. OK I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here, I just want to pass on some info and knowledge I think all women should be aware of. Talking to friends/family who've had babies, it seems that alot of them get caught up in all the 'labour aid' possibilities. There's so much these days that can help us in labour, epidurals, gas'n'air, pethidine, etc, etc, that it's almost seen as inevitable to 'take' something during labour.
After having dd, and relaying my birth story I found that people were almost suprised that I didn't take any drugs, in any form, like 'how did she do it?' During the first stage I was at home, on a lovely shagpile rug on the floor, propped up against the bed. Dh gave me honey and hot water to keep me going cause I was there for a few hours. Each time a contraction came I got up on my knees and leant forward on the bed and got my lower back rubbed by dh. i was like this for hours, and I was really comfortable, and the pain was only bad when the contractions peaked. But when they died down, it was almost pleasurable. When I got to the hospital I was 9cm, and two hours later she was born. I was only pushing for 25 minutes. The crowning was really painful, like fire, but I didn't tear thank god!
I've heard so many scare stories about women who've had an epidural early on, which has lead to other forms of 'painkillers' and ended up having c/s, because they were so drugged up and numbed that they had no strength to finish.
My point is that a natural birth is attainable for any woman, even if you have a low pain threshold. Labour is painful no matter what, and I reckon it's better to feel the pain and control it than to have some drugs control it for you.
'New Active Birth' by Janet Balaskas is a brilliant book that helped me achieve childbirth without intervention and drugs which sometimes make things harder than they have to be.
It makes me feel sad that so many women opt for ceasarians without even trying to do it naturally which is better for mother and child. I'm not putting anyone down for any intervention they decide to take on, of course it's each woman's choice but I think more women should have faith and confidence in their natural ability to give birth.
Raspberry leaf tea, perenial massage, yoga, deep breathing, back massage, upright positions (instead of lying back on the bed in a pasive position) are all natural ways of controlling the pain of labour.
I hope this doesn't sound like a lecture, but I know I've given my sister confidence to try it naturally, and wanted to give anyone who's in doubt or scared some encouragement and advice.
Good luck to everyone who's expecting, and just trust in yourself!

I agree, excellent book by an anthropologist and mother which gives a very clear-eyed and unsentimental view of what the maternal instinct is - and isn't.

Pupuce: I'm really glad you did post the stuff up as it opened up the debate again and made for interesting reading. Natural birth and bf seem to be the most emotive topics by far - as all the women on here have lived them in such a heightened way. I initially bristled at the concept of 'positive pain' as mine wasn't and gave me a sort of mild version of post traumatic stress disorder for a long time afterwards. But my best friend talks about her births in such a way and of bliss hormones (didn't get those either!). In fact our opposite birth/bf experiences have led to completely different approaches to motherhood (and yes, we still get on!!).

The enthusiastic promotion of bf and natural birth can absolutely feel like an attack against others' less ideal experiences (I know about the choosing thing - but it just does affect a great many people that way and so should be acknowledged). But, as you say, how can you get around that without undermining the 'breast is best' message across society as a whole? I dunno, but it would make a good thesis...

Funnily enough, i was ecstatic after birth of my ds by c/s. In photos I'm just grinning and looking all soupy at ds. I couldn't sleep for excitement and went a bit loopy - I remember thinking, "oh my god, I've clearly had the most beautiful child that ever existed. Obviously now the model scouts will be after him, but I'm not sure I want him to go down this route so early. How will I protect him from his adoring fans?" And, no, I'm not entirely joking. Even though he had one eye firmly shut during his first two days of life. Something odd kicked in that was nothing to do with the birth process. there is evidence that there is priming of the body for love during pregnancy, and most of the rest is done by close contact after birth (I don't mean just immediately after, I mean during the first days, weeks and months). Babies make you love them, I think.

Somehow it feels that if you want a naatural birth then you have to be an 'earth mother' type, and if you want a caesarian or high-tech birth then you're a coward or un-natural. DON'T BITE MY HEAD OFF YET! But what about those of us who want to give birth naturally and aren't into whale music and insence, or those of us who choose (or are persuaded to choose) an epidural or caesarian but do want the whale music etc. What I'm try to say in my garbbled and sleep-deprived way is that natrual childbirth has become a label and a bit of a burdensome one too. My first baby was born high-tech with epidural, my second low-tech natural with no drugs. I very much resent the assumption from others who assume that the second birth was mmore satisfying or 'better'.

I was open to whatever pain relief or level of intervention necessary to get my precious bundle into the world as healthily as possibly for us both.

It just so happened that my birth was 2.5 hours from start to finish and there was no time for any pain-relief really. I shouted for an epidural at 8cms but dd was crowning when the anaesthetist put his head round the delivery room door. I could be heard apologising for 'wasting his time' - who says you need drugs to be delirious ??!!

I agree with milch, I'm not an earth-mother type, but I had a homebirth with ds2 (but absolutely no whale music or incense anywhere.) I chose a hb to avoid all the unnecessary interventions which happened during my first labour - not so I could ritually bury the placenta in the garden afterwards.

Going back to what boogs, the orginal poster was saying, it's about informed choice. Yes, you might not be able to give birth naturally, due to circumstances beyond your control, circumstances that,in a bygone age, might have led to yours and your baby's deaths. But equally modern childbirth practices (in this country at least) are not conducive to a natural birth. Induction, continual fetal monitoring, lying flat in bed, epidurals etc all interfere with the body's ability to give birth naturally.

I found boogs post very positive, an affirmation of a woman's natural ability to give birth. Too often we are almost discouraged from trusting our bodies. In my first labour, I found I was looking at the damn machine to tell me when I was having a contraction! I know interventions are sometimes necessary, life-saving, even, but they are over-used and often completely avoidable.

You might not be able to give birth naturally, but you stand a much better chance if you are fully informed of your choices. How many women (particularly first-timers) know that they are within their rights to refuse an induction if they go overdue and instead insist on monitoring? How many know that having continual fetal monitoring or an epidural makes it much more likely that they will require further intervention, and possibly even a c/s? I certainly didn't first time around.

Boogs, your motives for posting were pure. You just wanted to present natural birth as a viable alternative - something which, all too often alas, the health professionals do not.

I tend to agree with Milch. I would choose a c/s but would also choose to b/f for at least a year. I am a very easygoing mum, but would not like the lack of control that goes with a natural birth (or the pain, no matter how therapeutic). I think we divide women into two camps far too quickly. I know some really hippy mums who have chosen epidurals and the other way round.

Oh, and I would hate a homebirth but I wouldn't look down on anyone who had one.

pupuce - I thought the info you posted very interesting. It got me thinking about pain in other contexts. We feel pain because it is a signal telling our body that something is wrong. To mask it too much can be dangerous. As in the case of taking too many painkillers if you have a sore back for instance and perhaps injuring yourself even more.

However I do think that us humans are unfortunate that we feel so much pain in childbirth due to our odd shapes and large babies so perhaps we could be excused for a bit of pain relief. It seems that most of us take the mimimum necessary as we seem to want to be in control as much as poss. I would like to hear more about the implications of interventions, epidurals, c/s etc. I know it can annoy some but if there are risks or complications then these should be made known for those yet to give birth. So please don't go away from this thread if you have anything to share.

pupuce again, just looked at those abstracts. It reminded me about the discussion of pain relief in our ante-natal classes. We talked about the different methods in depth. However at NO point was anything mentioned about the effect on breastfeeding straight after birth. My ds was quite small at birth and despite being put straight on my tummy he had difficulties latching on. I had only one morphine injection but I think this was enough to make him sleepy. It seems obvious to me now that this may affect his breastfeeding but I didn't think of it at the time and no-one said anything.

Obviousy some may not be able to have a lot of choice or the pain may be really bad but at least then you have prior knowledge and perhaps not get so wound up if things go badly with breastfeeding at the start.

Eulalia, have a look at some AIMS journals. I've just received that latest one this morning which has an article 'The trauma of being born' which examines some studies which have shown links between method of delivery/interventions and asthma, violent suicide in later life, drug addiction, anorexia, autism, etc.

SueW - interesting that Aims list those studies too (there are quite a few!).... I was chatting about this whole topic with DH and I was saying that "I" don't understand why so many people feel that there would be no consequence to a mother or her baby with any form of medical intervention. Again not saying you should not have any, just suggesting that telling a woman "Oh i'll just sweep your membranes or rupture them" - and then telling her there is no risk - is simply not true.
But why would "we" feel that these interventions are not going to be meddling with nature's way? Same is true for women who are fed up (and we've all been there ) of being pregnant and either look at alternative ways of inducing themselves or request (or accept) an early - 40 weeks - medical induction...

Just been with a woman who was sweeped without consent - she had a very very strong labour from the start... all MW agree to say was : it would not have worked if your body was not ready.... WHEN WHY ON EARTH DID YOU DO A SWEEP AT 38 WEEKS?
BTW - it all ended in section.

Eulalia - I am surpirsed and not surprised that you were not told about the difficulty in BF a child who has had aneasthetic or an instrumental delivery. I find these babies (inclduing ceasarean ones) do take much longer to properly get BF going... and sometimes they do latch on immediatley after birth only to refuse BF for 2 days... now depending on the hospital you may be left alone to persevere (letting you and baby settle).... and with others after 6 hours a bottle of formula will be shoved in your/baby's face (and I am not joking!) - and you have everything else in-between... no wonder many women have left feeling inadequate, fed-up, tired,....

Did I say I'd stay out of this discussion???? I lied

Pupuce, I'm glad you didn't leave the conversation! We're not always going to agree, and please don't take personally anything I say, sometimes I just want to put another side across. That's not to say I think you are completely wrong, far from it, I just know that there will be other Drs with equally strong opinions on the subject. After all, what kind of discussion would it be if we all agreed!

Pupuce, have you got the AIMS journal? It lists 14 studies.

It also refers readers to Primal Health Research Centre which I bet you are familiar with

No I don't
Yes I do

Rhubarb - I've known you a long time... so I don't get upset but

1. I am damned stubborn and far too passionate
2. I want to fight for the right of woman to have good births (what ever that means to one woman)
3. I am very tolerant of other people's choice but I do have to say what I believe in....I think ! And like others who do not agree with me - I think they are misguided

I really enjoy hearing about peoples positive birth stories, I makes me feel stronger about giving birth this time round. Last time I ended up being induced at 11 days over which led to an epidural (although off it for 2nd stage) and monitoring. I have no regrets about my birth as the second stage was how I imagined it, dd was delivered onto my tummy and I fed her straight away for a good 40 mins so in all I actually enjoyed the experience, although maybe it was the drugs
But I would definately be stronger this time about refusing to be induced so early and that is due to reading more about the effects of induction, threads like this on mumsnet and obviously having been there I don't want to do it again that way. I do feel cheated that I didn't get to feel the natural start of labour.
So in all I love reading all the information that Pupuce and others put on here and rather than be offended by Boogs post I find it more inspirational. I do think I need telling that you can trust your body to do it!
BTW what is the longest you can go over your due date without worry?

I would say it varies from woman to woman.... but if you have a 28 day cycle and you are sure of your dates... you can EASILY go to 42 weeks. In some places they will let you go to 43 and even 44 weeks ! (That is less common in the UK).
After 42 weeks hospitals might ask you to come in every other day for a scan to ensure that your placenta is still OK and to check the quantity of fluid.
Mears or Leese are more qualified so they may say soemthing more...

Forest you wrote : you can trust your body to do it!

YES YES YES,... but why dont you/we????????
I have to say that it's my motto.... that's how I work and I even had private e-mails from mumsnetters to tell me that it's that sort of stuff that got them through.... very flattering but why is it that

1. they hadn't "heard" it before
2. didn't know it themselves?
3. Only believed it when they achieved it.....

Oh well...

Well, my baby was born by C/S and he latched on beautifully ... our problems with feeding came later and were nothing to do with medical intervention.
SueW ... Sorry but I haven't read it so I apologise if I have got the wrong end of the stick but I think that if this AIMS study says that there are links with autism/suicides/drug addiction/anorexia etc etc and intervention in births is just another guilt trip for mothers ...
and a total load of c**p!
Sorry to be so horrible about it but this is beginning to annoy me now ...

Ghosty, I get the impression that you almost couldn't be nasty if you tried. For what it's worth I agree with you on this one. There are plenty of people on mumsnet who have kids with special needs and I imagine the last thing they need is to be told that their birth choices or lack of choices contributed.

Re Odent- I am not going to be told by a MAN about positive pain. Sorry but that's it- full stop. When he's given birth he can resume chatting about it if he wishes. Pain in labour is one sub-area where men and women who haven't been through it should shut up, IMO. Even women who have been through it sometimes forget that their experience isn't the exactly the same as another woman's but at least it's AN experience and so qualifies them to enter the debate.

Point of interest- had emergency c-s resulting in 2 lovely twin boys and had no problems breastfeeding them. I believe this was because I was breastfed myself and never considered the alternatives or doubted I could do it and was absolutely nothing to do with the way they were born, pain relief, how we bonded etc.

Thanks Scummy ... I do sometimes try to be nasty but it just doesn't work ...
Totally agree with you on the Odent thing ... How can a man ever possibly know what the pain of childbirth is like?

Chosty the AIMS thing isn't a study but an article looking into a number of studies which have investigated the possibility of links between type of birth and the things I mention.

Do you think it is wrong to see if different types of birth can have an effect in later life? I am about to insist that a copy of my labour notes is placed with my daughter's medical file. She had an unusual presentation, was stuck with her head in a very strange position for 16 hours without detection and I would like the information to be there if a retrospective study is done in the future into her medical condition. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that her condition could have been caused by damage to the vagus nerve during this time but it is just as likely that it was caused by a bang on the head, her chicken pox, may her vaccinations, a bug she caught etc. Her condition is of completely unknown aetiology but because there is a very slim chance her birth may have caused the problem and she, in the future, will not be automatically allowed access to my medical notes, I want the information there.

I don't have a guilt trip over this. No-one can make me feel guilty - it is a feeling which comes from inside oneself.

IMO, it would be wrong NOT to do the studies - it is possible for them to disprove their own hypothesis remember!

SueW ... I am sorry about your daughter's condition, I truly am ... and I understand why it is important for you to want your labour notes for the future ...
And I am sorry to have upset you in my post ...
I just feel that those of us who have had traumatic births with our children are being made to feel like we are failing before we have even had a chance at being parents ...
And yes I have heard all that stuff about no one can make you feel guilty ... only you can feel guilt blah blah ... true ... but it is what peopls say and how they say it that make you question what you feel.

Oh ... I have just read this and it looks like I am having a go at you SueW ... I am not ... really! Just wanted to voice what I was thinking ....
Probably best if I didn't take part in this discussion ...

Ghosty- I really don't see how your words could be taken as offensive. You've just stated your point and I'm sure everyone understands that you have no personal gripes with anyone on the thread. Honestly- I would be very surprised.

SueW- I do take your point about studies being a necessary and useful way of pinpointing the cause of all sorts of illnesses and disabilities which can, hopefully, then be prevented. However, I also think that there is a real tendency for people to bandy about unsound information based on incomplete, badly designed or very small studies and scare the proverbial out of people. I think we probably all do it and I guess that's why it is good that AIMS is taking a critical look at the reliabilty of such studies.