is it true if you have a cs, they don't even cut through the muscle?

[bluegreysky]

they just pull the abdominal muscles to the side,as they seperate in PG anyway. then push down and clip the bladder out of the way then cut through the womb, remove bambino and sew up.

i can't really see whats so major about that.
not really what i'd class as MAJOR surgery.

im definalty going now.
as quite frankly some of the posters on this thread resorting to name calling etc are making themseleves look like idiots and i can't be bothered wasting my time.

if you want to view this a competion thats your problem.
i don't view it as a competion as in my mind they don't compare.

i do believe woman should be warned of the risks of vg.
i believe in informed choice and also for woman to be warned of all the risks of cs.
informed choice is the only way to go

But its YOU that started off all the comparing!

No-one is disputing you have had a horrible time, but do try a birth trauma board, it would probably be more helpful than arguing the toss here. Or a birth trauma group.

well no, in your mind they dont compare because you had a horrendous vb and havent had a cs. i had a horrendous cs and couldnt comment on vb.

who has called you names? people (including myself) have taken umbrage at your implication that a cs is an easier opion and no big deal. giving birth IS a big deal, no matter how you do it and can either be the best or worst experience of your life. women can die through childbrth whether vb or cs. there is no comparison because neither is a walk in the park.

please get some help.

I was well aware of the risks of a vaginal birth, and well aware of the risks of a section. I was also well aware that there are no guarantees for an easy time or an easy time ever in life and particularly during childbirth.

I don't think you can make an informed choice - - because before the event you have no idea whether you'll tear or whether you will have your bladder sliced though.

All you can be is grateful if you survive it healthy with a healthy baby.

No a CS does not compare to a VB, whether complicated or not, they are both different things with the outcome of getting a baby out.
They are different, with their own risks and possible complications as well as advantages.

So you trying to compare a CS to your own experience of VB is pointless.

I agree, Bluegreysky. I think all women should be warned of the risks associated with childbirth. I can appreciate that your experience of birth was (and is) incredibly traumatic and has clearly cast a long shadow. However, your initial post was very much in the vein of "what's all the fuss about" - implying somehow that c-sections were p*ss easy compared to a bad vaginal delivery. That is never going to go down very well with people and the reponses you have received have reflected back. YOu seem very angry but I think you have directed your anger in the wrong direction.

You've clearly had a very difficult time and I think a traumatic vaginal delivery can be much "worse" and harder to recover from (physically and mentally?) than a straightforward (elective) c-section. This is probably why you've been advised to have a c-section for any future deliveries as your ob-gyn has made a balanced assessment on risk and in your case c-section would be the lesser of two evils. However, I can personally assure you that a c-section is not a walk in the park and they can be f*cking brutal. I'm living proof. I'm not trying to compete as every birth and every trauma is different, but I did want to outline what can be the reality of a c-section. Like you, I was completely floored by the reality; no one warned me of things that could go wrong: -

• Emergency section at 35 weeks due to large placental bleed (placenta praevia in twin pregnancy)
• Anaethetist punctures my dural membrane during epidural so uses alternative spinal block.
• Spinal block fails and I can feel initial incision.
• Knocked out by General Anaesthetic so do not see my babies being born.
• React to morphine so spend several hours post op vomiting (no fun when you're abdominals and uterus have been cut and sewn).
• Acute pain as no epidural for pain managment.
• Develop haematoma behind scar so scar open and seeping blood for six weeks post-op
• Forceps used incorrectly (wrong placement during caesarean) to remove twin 1 and so massive bone brusing to pubic bone. Still unable to lie on it two years later.

My c-section cast a very long shadow. PTSD/PND, flashbacks, no bonding. It took me a long time to get over. Even now, two years down the line the physical ramifications are felt. I have adhesions (so pain from that), problematic periods, bad scar tissue from the haematoma and a damaged pubic bone. I've no doubt it's not as bad as a fourth degree tear and, as I've said before, this isn't a competition. But I hope you'll agree that it fairly illustrates that c-sections are no easy and are not always a comparative safe bet. The long legacy of my c-section is that I will never have more children; I'm simply too afraid to go through that again. Which I think you might also agree is a fairly bitter legacy. Not quite minor surgery for me I'm afraid.

On an aside I'd really recommend the Birth Trauma Association as it sounds like you've had a tough time. They helped me hugely.

Kx

kitstwins, what a great (and sad) post.

Is it my imagination or are there more of these cs posts than ever before on mn?
It is getting boring
No way of giving birth is perfect, some people have very positive vbs some have very positive cses. And vice versa. Pleeease could we concentrate on the positives for a change!
I, like many posters here, was terrified of vb first time round, it was only after seeing my friends having virtually without exception very straightforward vbs that I lost the fear.
Ironically, both dcs were breech so I then ended up having cses anyway . I hated them personally, but do you know what - I'm still here and I'm not going to tell anyone else it's the right or wrong decision to make

kits, how come they used forceps for delivery of your twins?

@ Bluegreysky

IMO whichever way you give birth to your child is major! There are dangers involved in CS and natural birth it just so happens that with a S it is classed as surgery, doesnt make it any better or any worse.

I myself was planning a waterbirth without pain relief but in the end my DS nearly died so had to have an ECS so I'm grateful for it because they saved my son's life!

bluegreysky, it IS major surgery. And I don't know what was done with my abdominal muscles but I was afraid to cough for weeks because of the pain in the scar, couldn't walk properly for a 3 weeks after my 1st. This was considered to be surgery where all had gone well!
No, it was nothing like what you went through, and I have to say, that no, it probably wasn't as bad as the forceps and third degree tear that my SIL went through.

But don't tell me it wasn't major surgery!

Alexa808 I initially had no idea they used forceps during the delivery as obviously I was unconscious for the duration. However, I couldn't understand why afterwards I had a huge, bloody, puffy bruise right over my pubic bone, although having never having had a c-section before I assumed this was 'normal'. After a couple of days though it was incredibly swollen (like a lump of blood-soaked bread - hideous) so even I grasped that something wasn't quite right.

It all came to light when I went through my notes with my hospitals Birth Afterthoughts service, which I did as part of my PND/PTSD treatment - I personally needed to fill in the missing bits of that day and to know what happened when my babies were born (missing their birth upset me more than all the pain and complications afterwards). I raised the issue of my knackered pubic bone and they said that it could have been due to the forceps that were used - I had no idea that forceps were used during c-sections (thought they were the reserve of assisted vaginal deliveries) but apparently they are 'caesarean forceps' as often the baby is rammed very far down into the birth canal and can be hard to get out. Aswas the case with my Twin 1. Equally, there were some issues with bleeding during my delivery (I'd had a haemmorage that morning) and they were rushing and I think were trying to get them out very quickly. Anyway, they used the forceps but placed them too high on her head and, I assume, twanged me somewhat in the process. She also had quite a few issues with her head post-birth, although we sorted this out with cranial osteopathy).

So a long waffling answer. It's not uncommon for them to be used during a caesarean and it shouldn't present problems if they are fitted properly during the procedure. However, like everything else that day, it didn't really go to plan.

Kx

Oh kits, how horrible for you. Gawd how awful!! I'm scheduled for an EL CS and will now put hubby on patrol to see that no forceps is going to go anywhere near me. I am deadscared of them!!! Sorry to hear you've had such a horrific operation. I'm so glad your babies are safe and you are healing. 2 years pain on the bone...

Sorry for asking and being nosy. I just didnt know they used these instruments in a CS.

Hi Alexa808 - you weren't being nosey at all. I had no idea they used them either (hence my cluelessness at the mess they made of my pubic bone). However, they aren't always used and I wonder had I not had twins (and Twin 1 been so squashed into my birth canal - fully engaged apparently, not that it made any difference.....) and had they not been in such a rush to get them out I think I would have swerved them.

An elective c-section is a totally different kettle of fish and girlfriends who have had them speak of okay experiences. Not quite a day on the beach in the Maldives, but nowhere near my shock-fest either. I was very unlucky - it was an emergency, there were (very unusual and rare) complications. I know my day would have been hugely easier to deal with had my epidural worked as not only would I have had the pain relief from that in place but also I would have had the euphoria from seeing my babies (finally) born. YOu will get all of this and I have read heaps of posts on here about really postive section experiences. My only tips are to take arnica and as many painkillers as they offer you as if you're pain-free you can enjoy your baby.

Good luck and hope it goes really well.
Kx

Wow Kits, you have my full admiration. You must be so strong to go through all that and then have to cope with twins too. Incredible lady, treat yourself to something very lovely very frequently. You deserve it!

my mum had an old-fashioned zip up the front CS - she had plenty of problems with it for years after, mild urinary incontinence and twisting scar tissue that caused adhesions and an umbilical hernia later in life. Plus the scar was truly appalling.

'quite frankly i think alot of people that are so anti c section are clueless to the risks of natural birth
very very clueless indeed. '

This from someone who thought a csection didn't involve cutting through muscle when the uterus itself is muscular.

The larger this board gets, the more it drives me to despair at the sheer levels of ignorance out there.

Really and truly.

'quite frankly i think alot of people that are so anti c section are clueless to the risks of natural birth
very very clueless indeed. '

This from someone who thought a csection didn't involve cutting through muscle when the uterus itself is muscular.

The larger this board gets, the more it drives me to despair at the sheer levels of ignorance out there.

Really and truly.

Read OP again. If you really don't see that OP was talking about abdominal muscles, and that she knew the uterus is cut, the real problem is with your comprehension of English.

This thread seriously digresses - what's the answer to the question? Are the abdominal muscles cut or not? There seems to be people who say they are and some that say they aren't. I don't like the sound of the ripping!!

Lollipop - just did a quick http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17253508 pubmed on the subject, and there are many types of incisions used, apparently. This explains some of them.

And this is possibly not for the faint-hearted.

Blurggh!

Having looked at those links and googled it I am still not sure, there seems to be much evidence to suggest that the abdominal muscles are just pushed out of the way, but in chat room topics it seems that they are cut.

Either way, it's pretty grim, as the last of Habbibu's links shows!

The muscles themselves are not cut but the Fascia that hold them together is.
This is why the surgery affects lying to sitting etc as the muscles are not functioning at full strength and have a waekness for 3 months.
This is why advice re lifting and heavy work is given - It is major surgery and risk of post op complications such as hernias if the fascia is put under too much strain in the early days.