is it true if you have a cs, they don't even cut through the muscle?

[bluegreysky]

they just pull the abdominal muscles to the side,as they seperate in PG anyway. then push down and clip the bladder out of the way then cut through the womb, remove bambino and sew up.

i can't really see whats so major about that.
not really what i'd class as MAJOR surgery.

competetive suffering?
wtf!

personally i wouldn't even compare the two but if you want to thats upto you.
personally i don't class cs as major surgey

quite frankly i think alot of people that are so anti c section are clueless to the risks of natural birth
very very clueless indeed.

but dont you see, its views like yours that a cs is "easier" than vb that feeds the "too posh to push" myth. there are plenty of risks associated with cs just as there are with vb. childbirth CAN be risky. 30y ago a lot of mners would have died in labour. it is a natural process but nature can be v cruel

That was the information you wanted to clarify? So presumably you slipped awkwardly on your keyboard and accidentally typed "i can't really see whats so major about that.
not really what i'd class as MAJOR surgery." after your original question. That explains it.

Yes, there are risks to both c-secs and natural births, I don't think anyone would dispute that. However the risks of complications are greater with a c-sec.

And from a medical point of view a c-section is more major surgery than a sphincter repair op. Thats not to say that sphincter repair isn't an awful proceedure with long lasting consequences, I'm sorry you had such a bad expereience of childbirth.

"personally i don't class cs as major surgey"

You can decide what you like 'personally' but doctors will disagree with you

There can be good and bad VB and good and bad CS. Its is crazy to say that one type is always easier than the other.
bluegreysky what happened to you sounds horrible, but it isnt typical for people having a VB, you were obviously very unlucky.

lol. skss, thats why ive been told i must have a cs next time? because the recovery and the complications will be alot less than another 4th degree tear.
this has been said to me by 2 consultants.

A first section generally is uncomplicated. Major surgery, but generally uncomplicated major surgery.

Following sections become increasingly difficult because of scar tissue and adhesions and recovery and chances of things going wrong increase with each section.

ahhh yes I see she's talking about that thread - where, like Jimjam says, many of those giving advice have had at least one CS.......

Hmmm - I had a CS because of the risks of natural birth. you do seem to be argueing both sides of the coin here.

There is a fundamental difference between muscles slowly and gradually moving aside to make room for a growing uterus, and muscles being forcibly ripped out of the way by manual means.

Add to that the fact that your uterus is a muscle. Have you ever 'pulled' a muscle when running, etc? Remember how that hurts? Well, take that feeling and multiply it.

Would you be trying to argue that a hysterectomy is not major surgery? It is the same operation. All of your core strength comes from your abdominal muscles and back muscles. They have been weakened by the surgical procedure.

Bluegreysky, I am sorry if you had a terrible vaginal birth, but getting help to recover from that does not often start by denouncing anyone who dares to say that they have had major surgery by having a c-section.

(Incidently, I have no vested interest. I have had 2 vaginal births, 2nd degree tear with first, small graze with 2nd.)

and talking as someone who's had a CS, one VBAC that was horrendous (extremely bad tear and took me nearly 2yrs to recover physically from it - mentally I still think of it occasionaly - and he's nearly 5 now), and one fantastic VBAC then I could quite easily compare the two types of birth.

A c/s that goes well is better than a VB that goes wrong, yes. A VB that goes well is better than a c/s that goes well, though, and you can be left with serious long-term problems (or die) from a c/s that goes badly just as you can from a VB that goes badly.

SKSS is right: for an average woman, the risks of complications are greater with a c/s that from VB. Tour consultants weren't advising the average woman, they were advising you. If you are at greater risk that the average woman of having a 4th degree tear then a c/s will, statistically, carry fewer risks for you. That doesn't mean that the same holds for everyone.

Bluegreysky, you were being given individual advice. Once you have had a 4th degree tear, your perineal region is weakened. Therefore, you are more likely to tear again, and it can extend. For YOU the risks are higher for a vaginal birth than a CS.

For the majority of women and babies, vaginal birth is safer than a CS. That doesn't mean that a CS can't be a very wise option for some women in some situations. That is why we have Obstetricians who can advise.

x-post with PortandLemon.

what portandlemon said.

fwiw - I had a 4th degree tear and episitomy with DS2 - a hell of a lot of stitches, DS3 I had 3 small stitches - and I (apparently) wouldn't have torn at all if I'd waited until the next contraction to finish pushing him out

BlueGreySky - Of course you've been told to have a cs next time. Thats because you've had a 4th degree tear and the risk of it tearing again if you had another vaginal birth are significantly higher.

What I meant was for a primip with no complications the risks of a cs are higher than the risks of a vaginal birth.

I read the OP last night and showed it to DH who went

He is well placed to advise that YES it is in fact major surgery.

He also said that anal sphincter repair may be classed as major surgery.

So please stop trying to win in the Who had the worst time after birth competition or who had the most major surgery.

Its pointless and may I add as a woman who in 9 days will have a c-section it is not helpful at all.

And arguing in an internet forum will not help you get over a shincter repair or traumatic birth.

ffs im not saying its right for everyone!
i was the average woman before i had dd.
there was no problems in my pregancy or to indicate they would be complications.

im saying there are very very serious risks of having a natural birth.
before i had dd, there was no reason to advise me to have a cs, so of course it wasn't considered.

but i do think woman should know the possible risks of having a vaginal birth.
and how it can affect you for the REST OF YOUR LIFE.

its also not great being seperated from your newborn for 3 hours after shes born.

anyway i'll leave you in your own little world.

my point is i was for a primip with no complications

I'm going to step away now but will say this to you before I go, Bluesky:

I really think that you need councelling. I am speaking as someone who has had it for reasons related to pregnancy, birth and trauma. It helps, it really does.

In the meantime, please do not take your anger out on other women, we have all given birth one way or another and all live with the implications of giving birth, be that CS or vaginal.

And you were one of the unlucky ones.

But maybe if you'd had a cs you'd have been even unluckier?

whats all this shit about competion?
if thats whats in your mind thats your problem

blue - I understand where you are coming from

I also understand why MNers who have already had c-sections are not happy at your assertion that CSs are not a big deal.