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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Why are so many women anti c-section?

359 replies

jivegirl · 11/05/2008 21:46

Despite planning a peaceful waterbirth at home, I ended up having a very scary OP/ventouse delivery with my daugher nearly 2 years ago (delayed second stage, retained placenta, 3rd degree tear, plus internal tearing which had not healed after 6 months and required cauterising)

I have been offered a C-section and will see the consultant again to make my decision in just over a week. At present (35wks) bump is transverse, so the decision to have a section may yet be taken out of my hands. However part of me is secretly hoping the baby stays transverse so I don't have to justify having a section.

I can't understand why so many women seem to be anti-sections. It seems admitting a preference for a section is almost taboo.
I still get horrific flashbacks to delivering my daughter and can't think of anything worse than going through that again (my DP rates it as the most traumatic day of his life!! ) The thought of a calm, planned c-section sounds like bliss. Am I being naive?

I should also say that I will have excellent support from friends and family to help me cope with caring for an active toddler and a newborn in the weeks that follow - so I am sure I am luckier than many..

Would love to hear some opinions on this ladies!

OP posts:
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Kamagrian · 16/05/2008 20:02

Oh, and Fabsmum - you made me smile at your sense of annoyance at the "is s/he a good baby?" question. I always want to ask:

"As opposed to what? An evil baby? A demonic spawn??"

I mean...what IS a good baby? All babies are good, they're just babies!

nkf · 16/05/2008 20:14

I think when you ask why people are against c-sections, you need to specify what people you talk about. There are "people" who fervently believe that c-sections unecessarily medicalises a natural process and causes women to lose faith in their bodies.

But there are also "people" whose research and training have led them to conclude that there are more risks for babies and mothers with c-sections than with vaginal birth. So they - midwives, consultants etc - tend to advise vagainal births.

You feel you can't cope with a vaginal delivery and you probably will need a c-section with a transverse baby so I would suggest you concentate on you and baby and forget about "people."

Other people's birth stories have no bearing on your case and what might happen to you. That's my opinion. Good luck. Enjoy your baby when he/she arrives.

Good luck.

Toady · 16/05/2008 20:37

Hello have not posted for a long time, but felt I needed to put my point of view across. I had two emergency sections then a vaginal birth.

I think that a lot of woman are not so much anti caeserean but more anti consultants / hospital policies.

I am anti caeserean because I have had two and I hated both of them, being cut open and denied the opportunity of giving birth naturally left me devastated. It was very painful and quite frankly 'gross'. THAT IS HOW I FELT.

My main problem with caesereans though is how they are pushed on to so may woman who take everything that the consultant /midwife says as gospel like I did with my first attempt at a VBAC.

Examples

The baby is to big
The baby is transverse
The baby is breech
You have had a previous caeserean
You are taking too long to labour
The baby is in distress
Your pelvis is too small

The most important thing for me is that woman get the true facts and risks about any type of birth, whether it is you first birth or whether you have a previous caeserean or more. So many times woman are lied to and bullied into births they do not want.

I had such a battle to have a VBAC2 and if I do ever decide to have another baby to be quite honest I will stay well away from any hospitals.

As has been said so many times, it is your body and your baby, do what is right for you, research everything and do not let anyone bully you into anything, friend, relatives, midwifes or consultants.

CilC · 16/05/2008 20:45

Kamagarian I realise you are not being judgemental about what choice of delivery a mother selects/ has to undertake, but I find it very interesting that people keep throwing up statistics as a reason to avoid c section, particularly an elective one. For every stat I have found showing elective c-sections are safer I have also found the opposite.
I just do not think we can honestly find valid statistics to prove either point as most people who undertake these studies have a bias.
In US and Australia where medical insurance companies control a lot of the hospitals C sections are more normal and are said to be safer. In UK where NHS budgets underpin the hospitals the opposite is expressed. I just don't think we really know.

And as such I do not think we can use these to argue one is safer than the other.

escortss · 16/05/2008 21:09

please be kind, I am a mumsnet virgin!

From personal experience I have had an extremely straightforward, pain relief free (and enjoyable????) first birth- resulting in a third degree tear! Second time round I went into labour naturally, got to 9cms before I was wheeled in for my elective CS. I like to make things hard for myself by labouring and having the recovery no matter how i give birth!

I think that we are beginning to lose a little perspective here. Please, please remember the medics have trained for years, and years and years to make just these sort of decisions. no matter what we have 'heard' or 'read' etc they know. talk through you thoughts and feelings with these people and take their advice. They want the same outcome as you, healthy mum and baby. They are not swayed by statistics about CS numbers or budgets. They base their judgements on medical needs (think about why they went into it in the first place)

and before you tell me fabsmum, I am not being naive. I have been on both sides of the fence

morocco · 16/05/2008 21:45

welcome escortss

this is quite possibly not relevant to this debate but something unsettling I always bear in mind when dealing with consultants. one interesting fact about c sections in the UK that I read a while back. until 1990's it was still possible for a women in labour to be forced to have a c section against her will by literally 'sectioning' her. (an emergency mental health section order). it was only stopped after a woman challenged this in court after her c section

medics have indeed trained for years and years. I still don't trust them as a group (individuals who have earned my trust and respect is a different matter)

escortss · 16/05/2008 21:57

but why did they want to do the cs in the first place??? This was the best way to end up with a healthy mum and baby! I would rather trust the judgement of a trained and highly intelligent professional than an exhausted labouring mum. (personally during my labour i was so out of it, without a sniff of even gas and air, that i told my midwife that I had just got back from a holiday in sweeden- have never even been there- it was switzerland!)

I am neither pro nor anti CS or anyone making a choice, but I really don't understand why we treat the medical profession with such suspicion. No-one gets it right all the time but they will have my eternal gratitude for helping me to have my beautiful children and be healthy enough to enjoy them.

escortss · 16/05/2008 22:00

sorry just re-read, am not advocating sectioning people without full consent!

You can tell I am new to this game!

WowOoo · 16/05/2008 22:08

I had 2 ememrgency and have to say am so happy my not so litle ones arrived safely in the end. think all the medics did a great job. I don't like the idea of someone having an elective coz they want to preserve their fanjo's though.... Would have loved to have given birth naturally too, but don't sweat about it anymore. I've tried twice!

Teeniebf · 16/05/2008 22:29

I've had 2 sections, one was a crash emergency, the other was a 'standard' emergency (if there is such a thing??). If I hadn't had them there is every chance that I would have died and so would both my DSs. I have no real recollection of my first and can fully remember my 2nd one. They were not my option and I would never have chosen to have one unless needed. But, dear god, I still feel as guilty as hell for having them and feel that I have failed in some way partly because of some of the reactions I've had from the anti-cs brigade and my own feelings of inadequacy. I would never condemn anyone for having to have a section, but think that those who chose to have one for no real reason are just plain daft, they are painful, can be potentially dangerous, recovery can be hard! If I ever have another baby I want to able to have that 'real & proper' birth, but would never stand on my principles and endanger my life or that of my unborn child as I have heard some of the rather fanatical anti-cs suggest all for the sake of a natural birth!

DashingRedhead · 16/05/2008 22:40

You are completely wrong: you say 'they couldn't handle birth without surgery' - what the hell do you think you 're saying? Do you actually think every CS is elective?

You have a lot to learn.

chloeb2002 · 17/05/2008 02:32

i guess i am fairly anti c sections, but have just had to have an emergency cs. I plan to have at least one more baby and i really dont want a section again. I am a nurse and i gues i am firslty aware that a cs is major abdo surgery and as a result not in my mind an elective idea. I wouldnt for example say to a surgeon... yeah thats fine just do an open op to have a look see at my bowel etc.. I ahve also nursed patients in ITU post c/s. not allways with good outcomes. i know myself now that the difficulties of recovery from an emergency c/s, feeling ill from the general. tearing internally as d/s had to be removed very fast!
I hade multiple ibdications to have an elective c/s but both myself and my obst. felt that a natural delivery is just so much better for recovery. So to compare the two experiences i have had being induced with dd and a natural delivery and an induction and then emcs with ds, i would opt for the first experience instead.. but i am still sitting here licking my woulnds so to speak so maybe with a belly full of anti biotics a scar breaking down and feeling rough that taints my image.. im sure if you have a good cs they rae fine but if mother nature intended us to have babies by cs she would have given us a little zip up exit there!

CilC · 17/05/2008 07:28

Chloeb did you really say "if mother nature intended us to have babies by cs she would have given us a little zip up exit"..what an absolute load of rubbish! We have brains so we do not need to rely on mother nature alone!If mother nature was all we had to go on then your role as a nurse might not exist (hospitals and medicine would not be needed except for natural remedies etc) and everyone who has ever had surgery, whether it be for gall bladders, appendicts or hearts would all be dead. What a stupid, ignorant argument!

Sorry but some people have made some really good, constructive comments on here that I have found interesting and thought provoking and here you are - a nurse who should be able to add something quite valid but your comment just got up my nose.

nellyraggbagg · 17/05/2008 09:29

I don't know why people feel so strongly either way. Surely the only thing that actually matters is that both mother and baby are healthy? I'm not generally a fan of medics (having known a fair few), but I do believe that they are mostly keen to do what they believe to be the best thing for mothers and babies (without expert help, DS and I would almost certainly have died). I'd still say that it's up to the individual mother (to-be) to work out what's best for her, taking into account previous births (if any) and her own preferences. It really isn't anyone else's place to offer any opinion, never mind criticise!

TinkerbellesMum · 17/05/2008 13:52

The problem people have is not that mothers choose them, but that doctors choose them when it's easier for them, that pregnancy birth has become seen as something medical which it isn't in most cases.

If you genuinely need a section then there is no "problem". Genuine need are medical problems (mental and physical) not because a doctor doesn't want to miss his round of golf by letting a woman labour over the weekend! Yes, I have heard doctors say and know women it was said to "If we let you carry on you may need a section at the weekend so it's better we do it on Thursday (???) when there are doctors around" I was surprised how many of the sections are done Wednesday and Thursday after a "slow" labour or an induction because the mother was told that.

ClareyP · 17/05/2008 15:27

LadyThompson and anyone elso interested, I did internet searching on caesarian delivery and found a helpful site - www.caesarian.org.uk
mind you it was over 2 years ago but I still found it in my favourites.
Hope it helps.

TinkerbellesMum · 17/05/2008 16:45

That is a good site and they have a Yahoo Group too. Although it's a bit quiet.

gillis · 17/05/2008 20:03

Hey jivegirl...I know what you mean re: c-section v's natural. Had my daughter (1yr) by planned c-section. I have a history of not trusting medical staff (op went wrong when I was 15) so I was really worried by prospect of natural or c-section!! I was convinced either me or baby or both would die at their incompetant hands - the pregnancy hormones were v. convincing in my head!! I was secretly wishing for a planned c-section whether it was medically neccesry or not as under pressue (ie a complicated nat. birth) I didn't trust medical staff to make correct judgements. So - when I knew only safe delivery method was a c-section I was relieved. I got to know my consultant - stand up for yourself and demand this! Was great to know who was to perform the op & who was goig to be present at birth. Becuase I had met the consultant several times - felt v. relaxed & even got to choose music in theatre...
Happily managed to b-feed afterwards and apart from reacting to the thread they stitched me up with, no probs. I hate judgementals - when it comes to childbirth/breastfeeding/bringing up your baby in general they all come out of the woodwork...I would just ask self one Q - gut instinct...what kind of birth do you fancy? Good luck.

MacSupermum · 19/05/2008 20:18

I had c-sections for both my kids. They are not a miracle, pain-free alternative to natural birth but I certainly had a much easier time of it than my friends who have told me about their natural deliveries. I breast fed both my children, one immediately after surgery and the other back in recovery. However, always feel on the defensive when talking about it since the media coined the phrase 'too posh to push'. Despite this, I put my babies' health before my pride and let the experts decide for me.

Qally · 20/05/2008 06:40

We live in a country where smoking is legal, and yet deciding what to do with your own body is controversial as soon as you're talking reproduction. I think CS are maybe statistically less advisable than VB, but it's like epidurals - sure, they're less safe than taking nothing, and they can lead to more intervention, but they also stop women feeling agonising pain. How is that factor unimportant? You might as well say most people shouldn't have pain relief for most treatments, because all drugs carry risks. Why single out labour? There's a reason the churching prayer used to quote Psalm 116.3: The snares of death compassed me round about: and the pains of hell gat hold upon me. It's bloody dangerous for some women to opt for natural labour, and painful as all getout for most. And I speak as someone who's booked in at a midwife-led birthing unit.

I'm just delighted to live in an era and country where a genuine choice exists.
And bringing funding into it seems ridiculous, given the entirety of governmental funding decisions. If we can afford a flipping war in Iraq, or John Lewis kitchens for MPs' second homes, then we can afford for a woman to have an elective section.

Some women ARE crap at giving birth, and given that's a biological lottery as much as having brown eyes is, why on earth shouldn't they say so, and be pleased they live in a time and place where alternative safe options are available? A birth is a means to an end, surely, and making it as pleasant as possible for all concerned, while balancing risks, is the aim, no? I didn't get pregnant to have a lovely birth. If I want a challenge, I'll climb Everest.

fabsmum · 20/05/2008 14:46

"You might as well say most people shouldn't have pain relief for most treatments, because all drugs carry risks. Why single out labour?"

Um, Qally - I don't think anyone here has said that women shouldn't have epidurals or any other pain relief.

"It's bloody dangerous for some women to opt for natural labour"

And I don't think anyone is suggesting that mums who need surgery should go for a vaginal birth for the sake of it either.

Which makes me wonder why you're so cross.

"A birth is a means to an end, surely, and making it as pleasant as possible for all concerned, while balancing risks, is the aim, no?"

Well, having a 'pleasant' birth may well be your priority, and that's fair do's. But we're all different. My aim during birth was to get my baby out quickly and safely with as little damage my private parts and my long term reproductive health as possible. I also wanted to increase my chance of trouble free breastfeeding. That was why I chose to try to give birth without an epidural or pethidine. I think you'll find that most women who opt for natural births aren't doing it simply for 'the challenge' but because they've weighed up the risks and benefits and have decided that there's something in it for them and their babies.

Qally · 21/05/2008 00:47

I didn't say pleasant. I said as pleasant as possible while balancing risks. The two are not remotely the same.

I think you'll find that most women who opt for natural births aren't doing it simply for 'the challenge' but because they've weighed up the risks and benefits and have decided that there's something in it for them and their babies.

Indeed. Which is why I stated quite clearly that that is what I have opted for myself - unless you know of midwife-led birthing units that offer c-sections or epidurals?

It might help you, in understanding other people's positions, if you read what they actually say, rather than what it would suit your position for them to have said? Aid debate, and all that.

Risks and benefits exist for all decisions, and the idea women will blindly walk into a section strikes me as more than a little odd. And I have read plenty of threads relating to labour where people argue vociferously against epidurals. Sure, there are a number of increased risks, which is why I hope to avoid it myself - but most women hope to, and only a minority succeed, because labour can be excruciating.

I'm not remotely angry, I just have strongly held views. It can feel a little wearing to be confronted with that, can't it? They're strongly held because how women give birth is, to my mind (in common with whether they choose to abort, their contraceptive choices, and whether they decide to breast-feed) an almost uniquely value-laden area. Women's fertility and reproductive choice is always treated as open season, with complete strangers feeling they have the right to take up a position on what someone else does with their own body.

fabsmum · 21/05/2008 09:12

"and the idea women will blindly walk into a section strikes me as more than a little odd"

Maybe it's because they are exposed to opinions like 'some women are crap at giving birth' and 'most women hope to avoid using epidurals but only a minority succeed'.

How undermining is that? If even other women who would prefer not to have interventions themselves (as I assume to be the case with you) think that women's bodies routinely fail them during labour and that most women can't cope with labour pain?

There are many reasons why a woman might end up with interventions - a majority of which have nothing to do with her body being 'crap at giving birth', but will have everything to do with the position of her baby and the way she is cared for during labour.

As for the numbers having epidurals - well in my local hospital (4700 births a year, all but a few hundred in the consulant led unit) less than 1 in 4 women choose to have an epidural in labour - and that's in a group which includes a good number of high risk women who will have been advised to have an epidural in labour to reduce blood pressure and prepare them for a c-section in anticipation of problems during labour.

"They're strongly held because how women give birth is, to my mind an almost uniquely value-laden area. Women's fertility and reproductive choice is always treated as open season, with complete strangers feeling they have the right to take up a position on what someone else does with their own body."

You are mistaken in assuming that the majority of people who truly care about this issue are taking up a moral position on it. People who raise concerns about the high rate of interventions UK mums experience during labour are not generally concerned about the choices women make as individuals but about the system of maternity care and about the wider birth culture that results in an operative birth rate which almost all birth professionals agree is signficantly higher than it needs to be.

Qally · 21/05/2008 10:04

I think most women choose pain relief because labour pain's worse than they ever anticipated. Studies tend to bear that out. Not being willing to endure terrible pain, when it can be alleviated, isn't a bad decision IMO - I think it's great that pain is to an extent optional, so the woman can choose for herself how much she's prepared to take. I'm hoping I'll be lucky, as my mother was (relatively easy labours, not too painful, fairly rapid) but I'm willing to roll with it if I really can't cope, because I know that I'm fortunate enough to have an alternative option. And I don't think that the total positive thinking approach is any more helpful than the over-medicalised one, because some women just can't birth naturally. Friend of mine got to 9cm dilated with both her dd before she had to have a section - she's small, had exceptionally big babies, they were just not going anywhere. But her midwives and she wanted to try, and both times she did, before the section was resorted to. She cheerfully says she is just not cut out for natural labour, and all she feels is pleased that other options are available so it's no biggie. What distresses me is how many women feel failures for not being able to cope with the pain/have vaginal deliveries, because that's almost fetishised, when to a certain extent it's down to blind luck. Surely the only thing that actually matters is that both mother and baby are healthy, and the labour isn't too traumatic for them? Yet a lot of women are devastated that their confidence was misplaced and they "failed" at giving birth vaginally - famously, Kate Winslet even lied about her first birth for years, because she felt so ashamed of needing a section, after 2 days of fruitless labour, after confidently asserting in pregnancy that her body would be capable of birth without much pain relief, that that was what it was designed to do. Her confidence was misplaced, and it set her up for a terrible fall - and there are many, many women who feel that way after psyching themselves up with great confidence before actually arriving at labour. That's an appalling burden to lay on anyone - that they've failed in some fundamental way, when their maternity has barely begun. And I have a couple of friends whose babies were so badly positioned that their births were agonising - one had been infertile for 5 years and still refused to consider another child for months after because of the pain - and they both felt that they'd far rather have had a section if they'd had any idea of what they were facing. At the end of the day, does it matter if you give birth vaginally or by section? If both mother and baby are safe and well? The ONLY reason it matters is that risk is higher in a section, according to some research (though I note others here say different research disagrees) and really the risks of anything going badly wrong are low, thank God, whichever route. So surely the women's experience is important, too?

Can't speak for your hospital, or what you mean by "choose" to have an epidural - all I know is the study I saw said that the majority of women in labour have epidurals, and of those who do, only 20% went into labour intending to, the rest all planned to avoid one at all costs. Epidurals carry risks, but extreme pain over a long time-frame is potentially very damaging psychologically as well as very unpleasant, and that's a serious risk too. I just think we are so lucky to have that option, if we need it. We're blessed to have alternatives that so many women in the world do not.

Of course our maternity care at present is shocking in a first world country. Basic cleanliness is ignored in a lot of hospitals, women aren't supported enough, their environment can be completely unconducive to the relaxation that is so important when labouring, over-medicalisation for the convenience of the staff and not mother is reportedly resorted to much too frequently, and a bit of tlc has become unavailable to many due to understaffing. That's appalling, as I doubt anyone would disagree. But I don't think the answer is to say women shouldn't have the choice of a section if that's really what they want, as opposed to need - a natural birth can bee a traumatic and scarring experience in physical and emotional terms, and someone opting for a controlled alternative should be supported in that choice, too. Surely the optima is for all forms of birth to be as safe, pleasant and equally available as possible. In the final analysis, a woman should be able to choose her birthing method and venue, no? Because an element of control does more for confidence than anything else, and it is the body of the labouring woman.

Finally, I'm confused - if your only interest is in best outcomes for mothers in general, why did you ever bring financing into it? Why not argue for better financing for all maternity care, full stop, rather than a reallocation of resources towards your preferred birthing options, away from sections? In my experience, people only interested in something from a welfare perspective don't feel the need to bring unrelated arguments reinforcing your position to the fore - that always seems to speak of a dogma, rather than a concern. People always argue that their concern is only the welfare of women/children when they take a position on their reproductive choices - there was a lot of that in evidence in Parliament, last night. It seems a bit odd that the women in question aren't trusted to make good choices for themselves, especially when there are very different opinions on what the best choices might be.

Qally · 21/05/2008 10:22

Also:

Maybe it's because they are exposed to opinions like 'some women are crap at giving birth' and 'most women hope to avoid using epidurals but only a minority succeed'.

The former was a direct quote from a poster here, one you responded to, by the way. Is she not allowed an opinion on her own body you don't approve of? And actually several studies have shown that women who go into labour not realising how much it may hurt are ill-prepared. Why are you opposed to honesty on what they face?