Why are so many women anti c-section?

[jivegirl]

Despite planning a peaceful waterbirth at home, I ended up having a very scary OP/ventouse delivery with my daugher nearly 2 years ago (delayed second stage, retained placenta, 3rd degree tear, plus internal tearing which had not healed after 6 months and required cauterising)

I have been offered a C-section and will see the consultant again to make my decision in just over a week. At present (35wks) bump is transverse, so the decision to have a section may yet be taken out of my hands. However part of me is secretly hoping the baby stays transverse so I don't have to justify having a section.

I can't understand why so many women seem to be anti-sections. It seems admitting a preference for a section is almost taboo.
I still get horrific flashbacks to delivering my daughter and can't think of anything worse than going through that again (my DP rates it as the most traumatic day of his life!! ) The thought of a calm, planned c-section sounds like bliss. Am I being naive?

I should also say that I will have excellent support from friends and family to help me cope with caring for an active toddler and a newborn in the weeks that follow - so I am sure I am luckier than many..

Would love to hear some opinions on this ladies!

Sorry lilysmummy, while I agree with nearly everything you have said, I have no idea what you mean when you say all women should experience a natural birth. My birth was natural to me and it was not vaginal...and I do not see why every women needs to experience the vaginal route. My DD is the only sign I need to demonstrate my ability to give life!

Jivegirl, I think it's a real personal thing.
Personally, I never wanted a C-section and when I ended up wiht an Emergency Section with ds#3 it really caused me some heartache to overcome it all.However, that was more my mindset. But then, I had 2 positive vaginal Births before him, so, obviously I would be thinking differently.

There are issues and risks to C-sections, but then, there are issues and risk wiht other instrumental Births, too.

In the end, you have to do what you feel is best for you and your family, and if the thought of a vaginal Birth after your previous experience is to difficult to even contemplate, then I think a C-section would be the best for all of you....In the end your mindset will have such an influence in the way you cope in pg, birth and post birth...!

fabsmum - I never got to the point of a well managed labour.
I was due in October, and from August I was under consultant care.

I had sentences like:

"Yes, we could try to turn, but your placenta is at the front, so an increased risk of rupturing the placenta and having to have an emergancy section..."

"Yes, we could turn manually, but the success rate is only 40%..."

"Yes, we could try to turn, but given your increasing blood pressure..."

"Yes, you could have a breech birth, but the added complications are in the babies leg positioning..."

I chose a section. Was it medically necessary? Could I have had a natural breech birth? With pre-eclampsia added in to boot? Well, yes I could. But I dont see why I should have had to try.

I just can't believe that this evokes such strong opinions when we read in crappy magazines about 'celebrities' having cosmetic surgery / boob jobs / nose jobs / lipo...

FFS.... Some of these magazines actually pay for the surgery just to get the scoop pictures.....

ANd, yet, no-one is having a debate about the level of cosmetic (non essential!) surgery taking place.

I've said it before, I'll say it again now: my body my baby my choice.

I feel the birthing method I've chosen is right for me, my DH and our baby. My consultant agrees. I refuse to feel the need to justfy it further.

Elf, to be fair, Fabsmum isn't talking about mums like you. She has repeated over and over that she is not against a CS where a medical or even psychological reason dictates it.

Fabsmum, you have received an unnecessary amount of stick on this thread. The trouble is that so many women who have has a CS feel the need to justify it when in so many (almost all if not all cases on this thread) it was a perfectly reasonable and understandable decision. It's a shame there's such stigma surrounding opting to ensure a healthy baby and/or mother. Perhaps it's self-inflicted (the stigma) as I've never heard anyone either on MN or in RL be critical of someone who's had a CS for either medical or psychological reasons.

BUT, YCBS, has anyone asked you to justify it? Honestly? Or do you just feel the need to?

Sorry, wasn't trying to add to the stick against fabsmum, just picking up the comments about how people can justify their sections.
Realistically there was no reason why I could not have a "natural" delivery. People have breech babies, people give birth with pre-eclampsia.
In my eyes, it was a no brainer to have the section. In other peoples eyes, it was something that could be avoided.
I have had this said to be in RL and seen it on mumsnet.

No, I don't feel the need to justfiy it at all, and no end of waffle will ever make me change my mind...

But, I've been jumped on from all sides on MN for admitting that I want a CS.....

I'm 39 weeks gone now, and happy with my decision (moreso, given the number of ladies from my AN class who have (i) changed their mind at the last minute and then had loads of stress trying to convince their consultant to give them a CS or (ii) ended up with extremely traumatic births and had to have Emergency CS)

But, when I decided (at 20 weeks) I did feel there was a presssure to tell people why. I'm over it now!

Elf, I said earlier that the thought of a CS really scared me but hadany of mine been breech I would have had one without question. For me the risks of trying to turn the baby or opting for a VBB would have tipped the scales.

my mum had me breech. Even she told me not to consider doing a breech birth!
I do get people quoting studies at me about recent statistics for breech vaginal deliveries, and that makes me feel like I should have to justify it iyswim.

YCBS, as stated in my post at about 3.30pm, I am genuinely curious as to why women make the choice. Not in a judgemental way but more because it's something that frightens me. It's the same with potholing. I once felt compelled to ask some blokes in a pub why they loved crawling around in the dark!

Well, I suppose that sums it up: some people like potholing (personally, I'm in the same catagory as you on that one - can't fathom it! ), for some women a CS is the right option.

I do feel it is for me!

I haven't read all of the posts (12 pages is just too long ;)), but quite a few and it seems to me that fear of vaginal birth is a big factor in many of your choices, which is only too natural if you have had a previous traumatic birth, but which is something I find sad and a sign of the lack of belief vaginal birth in our society. Many of you seem to think that a C/S is better just in case a vaginal birth were to go wrong, as if the birth going wrong is almost a certainty and a elective c/s going well is equally certain. Honestly from personal experience as a hospital mw I can say that yes there are some horendous emergencies, but most births ARE normal and do go well. And yes most elective C/S's go well, but problems can also occur, most commonly with baby's breathing.
As a mum I would like to add that my own deliveries went well, but that I would of course be open to a C/S if it was to save my life, my baby's life or any other medical reason. Like many others I would never judge someone for having a C/S if it's for an emergency or another medical reason (including ptsd), but I still can't get my head around the fact that someone would chose to have major abdominal surgery if they don't actually need it.

To add to what Belgianchocolates said so well
When I said in an earlier post that some women are jealous of women who've had cses, what I partly meant is many women are very frightened of birth. We're bombarded by horror stories on all fronts and as our maternity services deteriorate that's going to increasingly be the case.
I was very influenced by a uni friend whose mother was a GP who'd had two electives (unusual then) and said why would any woman be crazy enough to do anything else? Then another friend who was a medical student told me horrendous stories of the births she witnessed on her obs/gynae stint and said she'd definitely have a cs. Come the day, in fact, she had a no-drugs earth mother three day epic, so that says something, she'd decided drugs-free was the best if you can possibly manage it, which is by far from always the case of course.
Anyway, having heard such stories from doctors I always quite fancied a cs and when dd1 was breech I felt like I'd been given a get out of jail free card. And I know LOTS of other women who also had cses, usually for breech too, who felt the same way, which initially surprised me as I thought I was the only one to nourish such wimpy thoughts. They all want cses next time whether it's medically indicated or not. I've warned them it's bloody hard with a toddler but they don't care, they've heard about the gore and potential pitfalls and labouring in hours with midwives constantly changing shifts and disappearing and they're not having it, they want to be in control of the experience.
As I've said before, now I know a lot, lot more about the whole business I understand that ideally one should go for a vb, it's what our bodies are designed to do and even though it doesn't always work out, in the majority of cases it does very well. I agree with fabsmum that the best way to approach a birth, especially after a traumatic first delivery, is with an independent midwife. That's certainly what I'd do in the incredibly unlikely event of having a third. But it's so bloody expensive and it's such a shame we have to resort to this and that increasingly it seems we're being polarised into thinking the best way to get the birth we want is either to have a home birth or an elective, where either way you'll have far more control of the process than going in to hospital in labour and seeing how things turn out.

"Realistically there was no reason why I could not have a "natural" delivery. People have breech babies, people give birth with pre-eclampsia"

Well - yes there was! If your consultant says to you that there are significant risks associated with a breech vaginal birth, particularly when it's complicated by other issues such as pre-eclampsia, of course you feel compelled to do what you believe is safest.

Besides which, even women who are carrying a 'straightforward' breech (ie, baby average size or smaller, legs in the right position, baby facing the right way) are faced with a total dilemma for labour, namely finding someone with appropriate experience of breech to deliver their baby. These days it's a vanishing skill. What you're offered in hospital is an obstetric breech delivery - lithotomy position, large episiotomy and forceps for the aftercoming head. Yikes! Who'd want to go for that? Particularly as the research seems to show that it's more risky than a section?

"increasingly it seems we're being polarised into thinking the best way to get the birth we want is either to have a home birth or an elective, where either way you'll have far more control of the process than going in to hospital in labour and seeing how things turn out."

I think this is VERY true. I tend to feel a bit sad when I hear pregnant mums talking about their wish for a normal birth when I know they're going into our local consultant led unit where they've got about as much chance of achieving this as of finding a hen with teeth. You want to shout 'don't do it to yourself! stay at home!' but of course you don't. You can't. They want to be where they can get an epidural if they need it, but you know that the thing that's most likely to result in an epidural becoming a necessity is trying to labour in a totally unsympathetic environment without one to one support. Ho hum.

I do always encourage mums to think about getting a doula though..... if they can afford it. Or get a female friend of relative they trust to help them through labour in addition to their partner. People are often quite open to that idea.

my two pennorth...

i have had one natural birth which went on for about 4 days: no lasting damage for me, but dd1 has hemiplegia/cp from when her cord snapped, if they had investigated earlier/monitored me better, and then they probably would have done a cs(which i would have immediately agreed to, if it had been suggested), i feel this would have been avoided for her.

second time around i decided that i was too posh to push (god, i hate that stupid expression) and insisted on a cs, met a lot of opposition but by this time was used to the system, carried on insisting until i got it. i was still scared leading up to it obviously, i know the risks, but on the day it was calm and easy: the main thing i needed was to feel in control (as much as we are in control of anything in life) and i got that: i felt dd2 was as safe as she could be.

however, natural birth fans, i support you just as much: it's 2008 in the developed world, so surely it's our choice? no-one should feel they need to answer to the other point of view, imo.

(anyway i am going to duck out of this thread now and go on to something trivial cos this subject just gets me a bit emotional)

another option is a doula, much cheaper but excellent for continuous support and reassurance during labour both for the mum and the dad

doulas can also attend c section births if agreed with hosp, which I would have found reassuring

fabsmum, agreed (I think I agree with everything you've said )

When I was in hospital there was a lady who did give birth to a breech. She insisted that there was no one but a MW and the student who had been looking after us and asked if she could go; and she did it all on entonox. The lack of interference (from the 10 Drs & MWs she'd just kicked out) probably helped her to deliver naturally without help. It was her fourth child and she knew how to help herself, I lost count of how many laps of the stairs she did that night!

I knew if I had gone to term I would have delivered naturally too. As it was the extra factors meant I had to go for the full GA/CS.

it's interesting that women are slated for opting for a CS yet, no-one slates the first-time women who opt for an induction at 41 weeks.

Tink - my mums exact words re breech delivery were "dont do it. If it were your second and you'd had a delivery before, I'd tell you to go for it"

As I said, I was born breech. My mum had been due to go in for a section on the 6th, as the 5th was her birthday. So she tottered home on the 4th, and I arrived very early on the 5th, too late to do anything else by the time she arrived at the hospital. Feet first, 10lbs +, on her birthday. But, as she said, I was her second baby, she'd had a delivery before, no problems, so she knew what she was in for iyswim.

Fabsmum - exactly my point in my first post about lack of experience in midwives for breech baby natural delivery, being painfully aware that there was a lack of experience (all the midwives at my hospital that I saw seemed to go pale at the idea of a breech delivery) and I was not willing to be a test subject. Selfish, maybe, but did make up part of my decision making with my husband (two days of looping around all the possibilities and pro con lists!).

My first was a natural birth, 27 hours labour, I got to the hospital about an hour before and just had entonox from when the ambulance picked me up.

I know there is some reluctance to let first timers labour with a breech because of them being "untested", which is why the woman I was in with had such a strong case.

Highlander, my sister was born at 44 weeks and they refused to induce!

Just do what you want..what makes you happy and sod everyone else. I've had both..a C-section for the first and an induced vaginal labour for the second. Both were great in their own way, though if you want to drive afterwards, insurance companies may make you wait 6 weeks - which is why I had a vaginal birth (altho not the only reason) second time around.

All things being equal..if I was to do it again - which I won't because I'm 44.. I'd go for the vaginal delivery because you can drive pretty soon after, and because I had the most beautiful birth. It was by no means uncomplicated but not as painful as I'd thought it 'd be..and I felt so..oooo powerful afterwards. I'll never forget the whoosing feeling as my daughter slithered out of me..it was absolutely gorgeous. But then I had a quick, relatively easy labour (45 mins active labour)..I just loved the whole process of labouring..which sounds odd but I'm no hippy tree-hugging person either (no offence to those who are)..I liked being able to handle the pain.

oh, and for the second vaginal delivery, I had a doula, which helped enormously

I agree with scottishmummy but also have to say that I had an emergency c-section because dd was footling breech. I have to say it was no walk in the park very rushed and very scary. I also was petrified of a vaginal delivery but resigned myself to it being a 'must have'. After having the choice element removed I found the c-section to be very traumatic, very long recovery time (my stitches got infected) and overall something that I would never choose to put myself through again.

BUT...it is your body and ultimately your choice and as I'm sure you've heard countles times EVERY birth is different be it natural, assisted or surgical so at the end of the day it is best if you make an informed choice based on what you feel will be best for you and bump!

All the best for a great delivery, healthy baby & happy mummy!

I would just like to know when it became "us" and "them". I was just talking to a neighbor (who I don't know very well) and she had her baby almost 3 months ago. We were talking about births and being moms, and I told her I had the baby bug again. I told her I had wonderful births and would love to do it again. She said "Oh, you're one of THOSE women who like everything natural". I said I didn't plan it like that, but that's how it happens for me.

Since when did it become us and them. This is the first time I've been made to feel like there are "sides" as far as mothering is concerned. I see it on this thread happening on this thread.