Men staying overnight on postnatal wards

[quesadillas]

Hi,

I'm getting myself really worked up about what seems to be an increasing trend for men to be able to stay overnight on postnatal wards. Last time I gave birth, men weren't allowed to stay. But I'm pretty sure that my hospital now allows it. This really bothers me. I found the postnatal ward absolute hell last time, begged to leave as early as possible , even though I knew I wasn't ready, and I ended up being re admitted. It was just a horrendous experience. This time I'm pregnant with twins, and the hospital have said that although I'd be a priority for a private room,there's absolutely no guarantee and there's probably more chance I'll be on the ward. I simply cannot imagine having visitors there 24 hours a day when I'm trying to get my head round having twins and feeding twins, and after a c-section. The woman in the neighbouring bed last time had her partner there at visiting hours and he was a nightmare. Loud, demanding of the staff (for him, not her) and thoroughly unpleasant sounding. I admit this may be affecting my views.

Did you have men on the ward 24 hours a day when you gave birth? How was it? Am I being ridiculous? And am I actually within my rights to refuse to spend a night in a room with members of the opposite sex, given that if I was having my tonsils out, it wouldn't be allowed?

Getting myself too worked up, need to get a grip!

Visiting hours for partners are usually 8am till 10pm, which doesn't seem to me to be denying anyone their rights to see their child. Anyone with a poorly child would obviously be allowed to stay 24hrs as I've already described.

If midwives were made personally criminally liable there would definitely be a huge increase in people leaving the profession. Mainly because good, honest and caring staff would be put in untenable positions by a lack of funding and structural problems. How would that help anyone?

The current position is that there are two groups of women whose needs, given the current state of post natal wards, are incompatible. Is there a way that all these women can be cared for appropriately in the current situation?

If I were to be pregnant again (which I'd like to be, soon ish), then I would not be able to choose an NHS hospital where my needs would be met. Given my personal circumstances a home birth isn't an option for me. So I know already that staying on the post natal ward, for me, would be an awful experience. I just have to put up with it and suck it up. Why?

The current position is that there are two groups of women whose needs, given the current state of post natal wards, are incompatible. Is there a way that all these women can be cared for appropriately in the current situation?

Yes. Separate them. Have ward rooms for women who need care, and ward rooms for those who don't. The level of care by NHS staff is poor at best, so give women the choice of a ward room where you have a midwife on duty some of the time, and a ward where you have a midwife on duty some of the time, by put you can also bring in your sister, your husband, or whatever.

As regards liability, until the staff in hospitals are willing to accurately record actions taken and be honest to people, the only solution is to accept the declining standards of honesty and care, and leave the patients who wish to protect themselves to provide their own witnesses. Let's face it, the only person who has any real vested interest in your health and we obeying is your partner and your family.

I'm going to hide this thread, but having just read back through some of it, I want to say to those who keep going on about the 'rights of women to dignity and privacy' - the women who do not want men on PN wards - and how the 'desire for a partner to stay does not trump this right':

I didn't desire my DH to stay. I desperately needed him to. I was medically neglected - incorrect drugs administered, other drugs not given - ignored, belittled, shouted at, intimidated and threatened.
I ended up with crippling PND, and PTSD as a direct result of this experience (the PTSD). I am not the only one. Postnatal care is dangerously bad in the UK.

So, in my view, your desire for privacy does not trump my need and my right to have someone with me to ensure my physical and mental safety.

Yes, this is because the midwifery care was inadequate. Yes, this should change. Until it does, I will fight to my last fingernail to not be abandoned into the 'care' of people who could have killed me next time I give birth. Regardless of your right to privacy and dignity.

• I meant that the PTSD was diagnosed as originating in the experience I had in hospital. That was badly phrased, sorry.

Humpty, you experienced appalling treatment from the NHS, absolutely without a doubt.

But there will be women who are severely affected by being in a ward where strangers are allowed to stay overnight. It's not about their rights, it's about their physical and mental safety/health too.

I genuinely don't know what I would do if I'm subject to this situation of sharing an in-patient ward with strangers, if I'm lucky enough to be pregnant again and experience being in the post natal ward.

My wife (and others I'm guessing) would have wanted me (or their husbands) there. Do your wishes trump hers?

Yes.

You are not a patient.

So, in my view, your desire for privacy does not trump my need and my right to have someone with me to ensure my physical and mental safety.

My point exactly.

There is a certain naivity here I think at how fast things can go wrong with your care on a ward. They no idea why a woman would need an advocate to protect her and her baby, and no experience of neglect, error, misreporting, hostility, and abuse on wards. In their experience these things can't happen to them. They are immune. They only happen to people they read about online.

Let me tell you that the ONLY person who can bear witness to your 'care' by the NHS is your chosen birth partner at the birth. The ONLY person who cares for you when the visitors go home is yoir chosen birth partner.

For those who wish to be treated like a piece of cargo going through the baby factory, that's entirely a matter for them. They have no right to insist that I be left as a piece of unattended baggage too. I have people who care for me and wish my child to live.

The NHS has shown itself not to be conducive to life, and not to give a fuck when your little bindle of joy is now dead. If protecting myself and my baby affronts someone else's feelings of privacy, they need to get over themselves. Come and complain when you've burried a few, and tell me it's because you felt undignified on the ward. Because there are those who bury their babies because of neglect and error on the wards, and to my mind a mother's and baby's life trumps your right to privacy.

My wife (and others I'm guessing) would have wanted me (or their husbands) there. Do your wishes trump hers?

Yes.

You are not a patient.

The moment your child is treated for ANYTHING, it becomes the patient, and your right to be with your child during its stay in hospital cannot be removed by anyone. They must accommodate you. If that pisses off other patients that's entirely between them and their carers. Parents need to know their rights, know who is in charge of care before they even set foot in the hospital, and be firm in enforcing their rights. Your rights are there to protect your wife and your baby's life.

If exh had been allowed to stay after I had dd1 maybe my ptsd might not have been as bad after horrific emcs. I really struggled to cope with being alone.

With dd2 I was on a ward for 4 days before I had her. Other people's visitors drove me fucking insane but I wasn't in a good state anyway.

Op I hope you get some peace either way. I really noticed the chaos had increased between 09 and 12 when I had my two and the quality of care had decreased

Ellie, your assumption of naivety is not true in all cases. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm naive and sheltered. I am very well aware of how quickly a baby can deteriorate, plus the fact that the NHS can make errors.

Your opinion seems to be in the majority amongst those who make the decisions in the NHS. I accept that my experience of post natal care, should I be lucky enough to be pregnant again, will be something that I don't want and don't agree with. I have no idea how I can handle this, but I will just have to suck it up for the benefit of women in your situation who are terrified of being alone on an NHS ward.

No wonder there is an MRSA problem, all those visitors bringing in phones and stuff! I was surprised when my DF was in hospital (not giving birth obvs) that he was allowed his phone, I thought he just smuggled it in to text DM to tell her to bring biscuits or tomato ketchup. (He said most annoying thing was constant pinging of phones and stream of visitors too.) I suppose the problem is more acute on maternity ward because babies come at all hours. It is rubbish and I wouldn't like it either but £100 sounds like a bargain. In some countries you have to pay just to give birth let alone for a room. It costs EUR 2000 in Germany or did about ten years ago. (I think that's an excess on top of your - compulsory - medical insurance.)

Your rights are there to protect your wife and your baby's life.

Not in our maternity hospital, thank God.

In a private room, fine, but not on the wards. Not enough showers, loos etc to start with. They weren't built to accommodate extra people. No post partum woman should have to wait for a loo or showers because a visitor is in there. In our hospital visitors aren't allowed to use the ward facilities but they still do. Bloody cheek.

If the baby is in the special care unit then it's always allowed for parents to be in there.

No one is allowed on the wards outside of visiting hours except babies and mothers. That's how the majority want it. Women have a right to feel safe and they don't with random blokes wandering about. It's bad enough at visiting time. There was a collective sigh of relief when the bell rang and they all buggered off.

so what about male midwives?

They aren't random blokes. They have a job to do and they treat patients with respect and honour their privacy.

Bit of a daft question.

not daft at all. i wanted my dp there. no one else. its all the other visitors that are the problem.

Right, well the solution to that is to have private rooms for all women as they do in some newer hospitals/wards. Which isn't going to happen given current funding issues.

I have the deepest sympathy for those who have shared horrible experiences. The lack of care is not on and has to be fixed - the sticking plaster of having other people stay in the ward to do care is not a solution. Can you imagine the uproar if it became accepted practice for people to stay in overnight in a surgical ward to provide basic care?

But please don't assume that the women who are against partners staying in ward are speaking from a position of niaevity (sp?). I had a horrendous birth. I can't share the experience because I still can't talk about it 10 years on. Having 3 strange men on the ward for the four days post-partum would have made an already difficult situation intolerable. Intolerable.

I discharged myself early- had to sign disclaimer forms etc- to get out of a ward where people were arguing/breaking up, shouting, crying, yelling on their phones, planning to get drunk, drunk, watching really loud MTV, etc etc.

Having them stay overnight would have killed me.

There is a certain naivity here I think at how fast things can go wrong with your care on a ward.

Phew, thank goodness you are here to put us right.

But please don't assume that the women who are against partners staying in ward are speaking from a position of niaevity (sp?). I had a horrendous birth. I can't share the experience because I still can't talk about it 10 years on. Having 3 strange men on the ward for the four days post-partum would have made an already difficult situation intolerable. Intolerable

The same with me except it was 6 weeks prenatal (wards were mixed post/prenatal) a weekend on the labour ward, then back on the ward followed by 2 days of inducing on ward and 24 hours labour ending in up theatre for emergency cs if forceps hadn't failed. I had to do urine tests twice a day and had several kidney tests which involved carry around a 6 pint milk bottle to empty all my wees into. Monitor of the baby every day. One woman whose husband couldn't come in one day sneaked her brother in instead
Extra people on the ward at night would have had serious impact on my MH and stress levels when I was supposed to be resting.

Shocking - I would have hated that.

No lorna it is not remotely disputable, and the only reason you think this is because you don't understand what you're arguing against. You disagreed that everyone's nice husband is someone's annoying male stranger. Someone=one person. I am one person who thinks everyone's husband is an annoying male stranger, well worse actually, so that means the person who said this is correct. You don't have to agree that I'm right, only that I exist.

Humpty I am sorry to hear about what happened to you. Do you understand that other women also need not to be forced into close quarters with strange men, in order to protect their mental health? What your DH being there could've done to another woman's PND and PTSD?

An astounding thread really.

One man telling us that women are naive/ don't understand the risks of childbirth and that "he knows his rights".

One man telling us that he won't be marginalised any more/that he must have the opportunity to participate fully (!?) and who cares if women feel uncomfortable?

This is progress?!

Sorry to disappoint you MuffMuff but I do understand what I am arguing against and am also aware that it appears some people are very rude to others on here when they don't get their own way.

I think it is important to remember the fact that this thread only captures a small snapshot of opinions and there will be others who don't consider other people's husbands to be annoying. Again assumptions being made. I hate to think what the ''well worse actually'' would be.

Indeed I don't have to agree you are right, finally something that I agree with.

All these examples of poor care make me really sad and also quite relieved that I no longer live in the UK. None of my friends giving birth here have a single horror story between them - all get epidurals on demand, all get a private room in which to recover and their own anaesthetist is allocated at the equivalent to a booking-in. That is the real issue here, in my opinion. Interestingly, the country in which I live generally has a much lower standard of living than the UK, but there certainly seeems to be more money swishing around to invest in decent maternity care.

Both points of view (partners present vs. non-partners present) are eminently reasonable and that is what posters such as dancing have failed to understand. They are also completely irreconcilable as long as post-natal wards remain in their current state. Implicitly, some women will not have their needs met under the current system.

As stated above, I would be absolutely unwilling to sleep on a mixed ward under any circumstances. In the same way that I would be unwilling to use a shared changing room or loo. Interestingly, it's only the NHS that expects us to do so (and even then, the expectation only applies to post-partum women). Why don't we all get angry about that instead?