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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Am I being unreasonable? Dad to be...please help

999 replies

simba86 · 11/03/2014 20:25

My wife and I, married for 3 years, together for 10, in our late 20s are expecting our first child at the end of May.

My wife has never really got on with my parents, particularly my mum, and whilst they live 2 hours away we see them ever couple of months.

I am obviously very excited about becoming a dad. I love my wife more than anyone in the world and so much looking forward to having our own family. I am also looking forward to being a proud dad and introducing our baby to my parents shortly after the birth, when everything has calmed down and my wife is well enough to see not visitors, but our immediate family.

However because of the break down in the relationship between my wife and my parents, my wife does not want me to let them know if she goes into labour, so that they are not hanging around the hospital or nearby, nor does she want them to visit after the birth until she is ready, which she has indicated could be many hours after the birth, or when we go home, or even a week or so after the birth. She is so stressed out about this she has driven off tonight after writing me a letter saying she doesnt want me at the birth, nor does she want me to be her husband.

I can assure you I have been as supportive of her and her family over the past 10 years more than most people could ever imagine, and as someone who has a rare medical condition with no known cure and an uncertain future, an only child, I don't want to miss out on a special moment for me.

I dont want my parents hanging around or interfering and have made that clear to my wife, I just want to share a moment with my parents, my wife and our baby shortly after they are born when my wife ia well enough.

Surely this isn't me being unreasonable....or is it?

Please share your opinion on this

OP posts:
Lancelottie · 20/03/2014 14:16

Maybe that's a legacy of the way he was raised through serious illness, Math? I can imagine some parents saying 'Well, you may not want to, Simba, but the doctors say you're OK, so get on with it, chop chop, no more fuss...'

Inertia · 20/03/2014 14:34

Hang on, who made you the sole arbiter of what's reasonable in your marriage ?

Why does any disagreement between supposed partners mean that you have to be 'firmer' , and your wife has to apologise to you?

Why is agreeing to what your wife wants a cause for festering resentment, rather than a possible way forward to consider against all the other options?

Why are you only concerned about your wife's wellbeing when you are told that it could have an impact on the baby?

Why can't you resolve differences between you like grown-ups, rather than being so 'firm' with your heavily pregnant wife that she feels she has to run away from you?

I agree with Lottie- it sounds as though you see your wife as some kind of recalcitrant member of your household staff, who needs bringing back into line.

squizita · 20/03/2014 14:36

...to quote from the link

"In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
Requires excessive admiration
Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes"

mathanxiety · 20/03/2014 14:37

what I percieve rightly or wrongly to be feminist views whereby mother has earnt the right to call the shots because of going through labour

Dear lord Shock.

That post exposes a severe case of womb envy.

And yes, as pointed out, labour was traditionally an event for women only, with men banished, and sometimes banished for weeks afterwards, and I am seeing the wisdom of that here on this thread.

WRT how strange you think it is that a husband should put the wife first after childbirth:
If a patient was recovering from a medical procedure that had lasted 8 to 12 hours or maybe even longer, would you put that person first for as long as it took for them to recover? Let's just assume it's something that would make walking, sitting, and getting up from a lying position painful, something that makes emptying the bowels a scary experience in the immediate aftermath, and could cause incontinence (lengthy and complicated surgery on the pelvis for instance) and that the patient is supposed to wake every two hours around the clock to take essential medicine.

The only thing the patient is capable of doing is taking care of his beloved pet monkey, an adorable and very responsive creature whom he rescued from the path of a lorry and in doing so sustained the injuries that necessitated the surgery. The little monkey got banged up too but no surgery was required for her. It was just a matter of being really shaken up but it has made her very clingy and needy. Because of the pain the patient is in, and because of the memory of the pain he was in during the procedure (which had to be done without pain relief), and because the memory of the indignity of it all is still very upsetting to the patient (staff came and pawed his naked rear end intermittently throughout the operation and he had a few rectal exams in the course of it too) caring for the pet and holding it is the only thing that gives the patient any happiness. He loves that pet and the pet loves him. He feels they have a bond since he risked so much for the pet and he feels that the pet is already in many ways the centre of his life.
What would you do to make that patient's life easier? Or would you do anything to make that patient's life easier?
Hint -- The patient is someone you love, and someone you have promised to cherish and honour.

WRT how you think it is strange that a husband should put a wife first while she recovers from childbirth -- I have no words.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 20/03/2014 14:39

"And on top of the serious strangeness of it there is the tetchiness that he has somehow had vital information kept from him"

I thought he was tetchy with us wimminz for not giving him this "fact" (although it was posted on p1) but perhaps not.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 20/03/2014 14:42

Good post, math.

AcrossthePond55 · 20/03/2014 14:59

It seems to me that you are picking and choosing responses to suit yourself & bolster your position, and putting spins on other responses to make the posters look as if they, themselves, are as 'unreasonable' and 'in need of firmness' (gag) as you imagine your poor wife to be.

Again, I admit I haven't read the entire thread, but either English is not your first language (thereby accounting for some of the very poorly-turned phrases you've used) or you are one of the most medieval, self-concerned, pompous individuals I've ever 'met' (internet-wise).

At this point, all I can suggest is that you and your wife seek marriage counseling ASAP for the sake of your marriage, and especially your child. With your attitude I can foresee years of conflict, not just in your marriage, but in your child raising. Because with your attitude, any time your wife disagrees with you regarding the child, you'll probably consider her 'unreasonable' and try to 'be more firm with her' to 'correct' her beliefs.

Simba, would you have the courage to show Mrs Simba this thread? If you are so sure that you are right, surely you would be willing to do so!

mathanxiety · 20/03/2014 15:04

Interestingly at the antenatal class last night, for 5 minutes or so we talked amongst the 9 couples about how important and life changing the birth is for the father, and how its important to not forget about the impact it has on him. This topic was started by a woman and I deliberately kept relatively quiet to see how the conversation went. Almost all of the women contributed to the conversation by at least agreeing with this, no one challenged it and some joked about the partners now making it all about them (my wife didn't make a comment then but did give me a stare then a smile).

So...if other women can recognise on here and face to face that its an important time for the partner and therefore considering things that might be important to them (respecting their wish to cut or not cut the cord, be in the delivery suite etc), then clearly i am not being unreasonable, im just in a minority.

Simba --You are a complete mope.
Your impression of what that discussion was about was 100% wrong.
The comments about partners now making it all about them was a bitter one and not at all meant as a joke despite the lighthearted comments.

The topic of fatherhood changing life for men was brought up (and of course it was brought up by a woman) in order to make the men present understand that the life they may be used to living (perhaps weekly outings to the pub, Saturdays spent with mates/weekends of leisure, having groceries bought and meals planned and cooked and laundry done and ironed and put away and a good night's sleep every night, not to mention sex occasionally) is about to grind to a screeching halt, and that this was brought up in order to help them adjust their priorities before too much damage is done to their relationships by thoughtless selfishness and expectations of life after baby comes home that are completely unrealistic. This was not a comment about the mystical 'behold the fruit of my loins' Pride Rock moment you think is central to it all. It was about exhaustion and drudgery and the expectation that it will be a shared ordeal.

Did you not understand that this discussion was not at all about how childbirth is an important time for the partner and therefore [necessitates] considering things that might be important to them (respecting their wish to cut or not cut the cord, be in the delivery suite etc) ? It was women making a point the way women do in mixed company (obliquely and with humour) about how men have to grow up and get over themselves and put someone else first. You have got the wrong end of the stick. The men present were being put on notice in that class.

Your description of the class conversation reveals you to be a person who more than anything else wants to bash your wife over the head with evidence that she is wrong and needs to change. You want others to support your view that you and what you want are just as important as she is here. You also seem to think of conversation as a matter of tactics in the battle you are engaged in.

When it comes to needs and wants, by 'equal' all through this thread it seems you mean your needs have to come first so you do not really mean 'equal'.

I think you are fundamentally very envious of your wife. Suddenly she has a medical condition that trumps yours and she will soon have a baby who will get more attention and need more caring for than you, and you can't stand it.

There is a whiny 'What about meeeeee-e-e-e?' coming across persistently and very strongly.

drivenfromdistraction · 20/03/2014 15:12

Insightful post, mathanxiety.

And in the light of what you say at the end, I think it's revealing that OP chose to name himself Simba - and not Mufasa!

drivenfromdistraction · 20/03/2014 15:14

whoops - posted too soon. Because, actually, perhaps the Pride Rock post-natal moment that OP wants is to have himself - NOT the baby - on display for admiration and everyone's attention.

mathanxiety · 20/03/2014 15:56

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squizita · 20/03/2014 16:31

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UserNameDenied · 20/03/2014 16:44

I am feeling a bit sorry for the OP, he has, to some extent, admitted he was wrong and has said that he is going to do things differently. It's a start isn't it? He has a lot to think about and a lot to work on but it would probably help if posters were less nasty critical and more constructive. Rightly or wrongly it's not surprising that he is being defensive. I would have hidden the thread after the first couple of replies.

If posters are thinking of the OPs wife then wouldn't it be more compassionate to try and reason and explain things to the OP rather than bombarding him with insults. This is not AIBU and the OP foolishly posted for advice.

I am NOT saying I agree with the OPs train of thought just that I feel sorry for him and his family. He needs guidance not a Mumsnet battering.

LoonvanBoon · 20/03/2014 16:51

Oh come on, username, the OP titled his thread "Am I being unreasonable?", so it's hardly surprising he's been told, pretty resoundingly, that yes, he most certainly is.

I'm astonished, though, that you think posters haven't also tried to reason & explain things to the OP. What on earth do you think the overwhelming majority of these almost 800 posts are doing? Not sure I've ever seen so many posters write such long, eloquent & heartfelt posts to try & help an OP. The frustration has come because of the OP's responses.

PenguinsEatSpinach · 20/03/2014 16:53

Username- The first responses to the OP are very different in tone to the current ones. That is because of the way the OP's behaviour has unfolded over the thread. He seemed to be doing quite well initially.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 20/03/2014 17:01

I've followed this thread from the beginning, with mounting horror.

At first, it did indeed seem like the OP was admitting to being unreasonable, and has agreed not to call his parents when his wife goes into labour. At least.

However, from his posts in the the last couple of days, it seems this could well be his only concession to his wife. I've a feeling statements like this:

if I simply agree to everything she says, the feeling of resentment will surely just fester without a channel to express it (my poor friends have had to deal with it ao far!) and that can only be a bad thing for the longevity of our relationship.

are hinting towards him pressuring his wife in the hospital about his parents visiting, after all.

He's not listening to any of the very good and valid points on here about this would be a very bad idea because of his absolute obsession with 'presenting' his baby to his parents. He is behaving like his wife is nothing more than an unreasonable, inconvenient vessel to incubate his baby. And as soon as the cord is cut, he has "equal" rights to the decisions regarding the baby - and never mind any consideration for his post-partum wife - she's just being "unreasonable."

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 20/03/2014 17:01

nd in the light of what you say at the end, I think it's revealing that OP chose to name himself Simba - and not Mufasa!

^^ to be fair on this point, he's named after his own cat Smile

squizita · 20/03/2014 17:02

username have you read all his posts? the ones from today and yesterday seem slightly sinister in their control.
They concern me because they do remind me of a mental health issue which can tear apart families if not treated.

AuroraRoared · 20/03/2014 17:03

UserNameDenied I do understand what you are saying but this thread is soon to reach 800 messages. If you look early on, the tone was quite different to how it is in the latter stages.

The OP hasn't listened to kindly meant and delivered guidance, and in the process of responding to it, has revealed a deep misogyny and total lack of respect for his partner.

He needs to realise, and quickly because this baby is due in May, that he and his precious feelings are the least important in his family. Instead of seething resentment, he should grow the fuck up and actually behave like the husband and father that his wife and baby deserve, rather than the petulant man-child that he has been to date.

brdgrl · 20/03/2014 17:03

It is great character material for a novel, though...

AuroraRoared · 20/03/2014 17:04

x-post with everybody!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 20/03/2014 17:30

A Gone Girl-esque one, brdgrl?

brdgrl · 20/03/2014 17:33

Or Emily Barr!

mathanxiety · 20/03/2014 17:33

Yes it is, Drivenfromdistraction, and Simba is an apt name.

The wife (and possibly his experience of seeing how people respond to her throughout pregnancy) has made it clear that this childbirth experience will not be all about him. On one level his wonderment about what it will entail illustrates his struggle not just over his wife's impending ordeal but also what it will mean for him -- there are a few elements of childbirth and the aftermath that give him great anxiety: his wife will not be paying attention to him during labour, she will be doing something that no matter how painful and no matter how undignified will give her an incredible feeling of empowerment, and above all she will bring into the world a being that will require her constant attention from then on. The wonderment and distancing of himself from all that is about to happen 'as a man...' , pretending it is impossible for a man to understand what a woman goes through during labour and afterwards, and the ignorance of many details is itself a choice against feeling responsibility for her and supporting her. How can he support someone whose upcoming experience is so inconceivable to him, and about which so many details are such a surprise? The factual ignorance and emotional distancing are evidence of great difficulty playing a supporting role (hence to the Simba element).

The fact that his wife (and his life) are about to cease being all about him is something he is actively fighting. The way to keep it all about himself is to establish control over the baby and over details such as her decision about visiting, and to afterwards establish his right to overrule his wife on every issue that comes up under the guise of 'equality' which means for him making sure he gets his way against someone who is being 'unreasonable' (despite his initial question, he is pretty sure the unreasonable person is not him the wife is guaranteed to lose the battle he frames in terms of reasonable vs unreasonable because she is always unreasonable his friends agree, and she can't just drop the grudge she holds against him mother and therefore not fair to him). He may want to cut the umbilical cord, and had an idea that he had rights over aspects of what happens in the hospital, including who is going to be with her during labour. He expressed the hope that he would get doctors to do his bidding when it came to deciding if she was ready for visitors. The idea that the hospital may have regulations about taking the baby places or no accommodation for visitors has not occurred to him up to now. He is envisioning a scenario where he takes control of the experience of delivery from his wife, where he takes control of the baby she delivers, and where the hospital conspires with him to put her in her place and restore him to his (atop Pride Rock, above everyone else).

He is not mature enough to see the baby as an individual with needs of his or her own. He will co-opt and use the baby in order to maintain his position. The baby is an extension of his own being whom he will risk hurting in order to get his own way. (I hope that stress caused by her actions for both of us can be nipped in the bud, as that stress will undoubtedly be felt by the baby which is cruel, unnecessary and what I want to.avoid at all.cost. if I simply agree to everything she says, the feeling of resentment will surely just fester without a channel to express it ...and that can only be a bad thing for the longevity of our relationship.) His says his stress will be echoed by the baby. His musings here express his narcissism and immaturity very well. He is helpless in the face of his own allegedly perfectly reasonable feelings of resentment and his grudges, but his wife's response to his mother's tactlessness is unreasonable and her position on visiting is also unreasonable.

He wants mummy there to hold his hand as his bubble bursts and his life changes beyond recognition because he has never grown up. He has never grown up because he got very used to being the centre of the universe while being nursed through illness. Now a threat appears on the horizon that causes him immense fear the fear that he will no longer be able to play the role of the one being cared for when he is displaced by the baby, who will command his wife's attention. He has already made the fatal step of getting married and leaving mummy to some extent, but has tried to keep a foot in both camps throughout the relationship with his wife it has been a frustrating experience trying to keep both wife and mum happy and their focus on him, but he feels he must keep both of them on Team Simba.

Marriage has been difficult because while he wants sex he can't have it with dear old mum, but his wife doesn't quite fit her shoes and furthermore, it turns out that when the two women are together they are distracted from basking in the light that shines forth from his rear end by the shadow each casts over the other. It's difficult to be in the presence of the two people you think should live as satellites around you only to find when they are under the same roof they are paying more attention to each other than to you as they pass each other on their assigned orbits. He assumes mum always has her eyes fixed on him (hence she always gets the benefit of the doubt) but has misgivings about his wife's focus.

His assumption that a wife would fill essentially the same role as mum (but with benefits) was as wrong as could be. There has always been tension because his wife won't get with the programme as he thinks she should. Her expectation that his primary relationship should be with her is a completely normal and reasonable and even rational expectation on her part. But he can't do that because he needs a mummy.

Matters have come to a head because of the crisis childbirth will bring. Now that his wife is going to be someone else's mummy he needs to get his former mummy back at his side. With the baby's arrival imminent, the re-establishment of the family dynamic that he feels must occur takes on real urgency. That reshuffling will retain him as centre of the universe, with control established over the baby, and the wife put in her place through deliberate acts of disrespect -- overruling her on matters that are important to her, pressuring her to agree to his demands (even now, and to the point of immense frustration on her part), being ignorant of what she is about to go through and expressing alienation from the process as if she were a member of a different species doing something incomprehensible like building a nest in a tree for the baby, and being pig headed about firmness, fairness and 'equality' before and during labour, and afterwards.

He sees he has only two choices in making sure he will still have a mummy after the dust settles get 'firmer' with her and assert control over both her and his competition, the baby, in the immediate post partum period (followed by taking over her role of primary carer for the baby even though his own need for care may have a detrimental effect on the quality of care available for the baby he says he hopes his own health will benefit from leaving his employment. Most parents would make a decision based on how the health of the baby would benefit...) or revert to manifestations of immaturity such as tantrum throwing and sulking and having mummy hold his hand, in response to his wife's post partum symptoms.

  • I anticipate being flamed for expressing the idea of caring for a baby as an at home parent as asserting control over the baby. But in this specific set of circumstances I think that characterisation fits.
FetchezLaVache · 20/03/2014 17:59
  1. On the occasions my wife has acted unreasonably she has always said sorry sometime after...
    If your wife is not apologising for her unreasonableness on this occasion, this is because she does not feel that she is being unreasonable.

  2. I hope that stress caused by her actions for both of us...
    Stress caused by her actions!! Does it not for one minute occur to you that your actions in pushing this, and going around searching for evidence to force her hand, and saying one minute that you'll let her call the shots 100% and then the next minute start talking about getting her to "compromise" (i.e. capitulate) might actually be a greater factor in the stress to the baby over this issue?

  3. ...can be nipped in the bud
    Your actual problem is that for the last ten years, you have allowed a situation to arise in which your DW won't have much to do with your parents, to the extent of not allowing them to sleep overnight in your house, and now you wish to address this. Therefore any talk of nipping anything in the bud is just bollocks, frankly- it blossomed years ago and you're now looking at digging the thing out by its roots, and now is NOT the time to do it. I really must stress that YOU HAVE ALLOWED THIS SITUATION TO ARISE. Whether your wife is objectively right to keep your parents at arms' length, a completely evil cowbag or something in between is immaterial. You allowed this to happen. To choose a point in time when your wife is more vulnerable than she has ever been in her life to grow a fucking pair is contemptible.

  4. if I simply agree to everything she says, the feeling of resentment will surely just fester
    Childbirth is not about you. At. All. It's about your wife, and it's about the baby. So yes, if she stipulates that she wants Led Zeppelin playing, or to swing from the light fittings, or that you cut the cord, or don't, you DO have to go along with what she says. What you need to examine, and possibly explore with a therapist, is WHY you feel this obvious smouldering resentment at having to comply with the wishes of your wife, labouring to bring your baby into the world.

  5. that can only be a bad thing for the longevity of our relationship.
    Being a self-absorbed dick won't do the longevity of your relationship all that much good, either.