Childbirth- inherently risky or inherently safe? Painful or not?

[WhatTheHellJustHappened]

My friend recently made the fatal mistake of saying in the company of some female colleagues that childbirth was the most painful, horrifying thing she had experienced. An argument ensued and majority of the ladies there believed it was wrong to call childbirth risky or painful. They said they pitied women who looked at such a beautiful and empowering experience in such a negative manner. They said that even sitting on a lawn was risky but sensible people didn't spend time fretting over it. My friend asked me later "When did it become a crime to call childbirth painful or risky? ".
While I personally agree that childbirth can be very empowering and rewarding, I also do agree that it is painful and potentially risky.

What are you views? Do you think childbirth is painful? Do you think it is inherently risky or safe?

Yes my community midwife said that she would be asking to speak to me on the phone mid-contraction and that from that she would psychically be able to tell how advanced I was

Of course I was induced so that didn't happen, but it seems a pretty crap system. I laboured almost totally silently all the way through (once I was allowed in the delivery room) - the midwife kept commenting on it. Not because it didn't hurt (it was a very fast and intense induced labour, with episotomy and ventouse) but just because I dealt with it by shutting down - I'm not a screamer or a grunter!

kayzr "I have a friend who gave birth in a lay by. They shut the maternity ward at local hospital. They told her she had ages despite it being her 3rd. She was watched and jeered at by a load of builders"

Some of the posts on this thread are jaw dropping. I am no expert but everyone knows subsequent babies can come really quickly. How humiliating for the poor woman

@Kayzr

That is a shocking story. I cannot believe that there are people insensitive and inhuman enough to jeer at a woman giving birth in a vulnerable setting. It's just disgusting.

I will lose sleep over this:(:(

Yeah it was just her and her mum as her DP stayed at home to look after older 2. She was on the front of the local papers. She had her second in the car park of the hospital in the back of an ambulance.

It would have been avoided if the MWs hadn't told she couldn't be in established labour.

Kayzr "She had her second in the car park of the hospital in the back of an ambulance"

So this had happened before and they still said 'hang on'......

Jaw dropping....

She has been pretty unlucky. She would like a 4th but is pretty scared and they haven't been keen on her having a home birth.

All could have been avoided if they hadn't shut the local maternity ward meaning its about a 45 minute drive to the nearest hospital with a maternity ward.

Shagmund 'Some hospitals have managed to really reduce their cs rates by restricting inductions to those for which there's a strong clinical indication.'

Do you know how that would affect postdate pregnancies? I was induced at EDD+12 and I really wanted another couple of days (no other risk factors, felt ridiculously well and healthy) but I was told that it was not the hospital's policy. I know I could have refused but there was no discussion of an alternative strategy. He actually said: 'Oh no, we wouldn't let you go over 12 days'
I know there is an increased risk of stillbirth but I believe that is still v small. Although the doctor didn't actually give this as the reason for induction, he said it was because of the baby's size and increased risk of shoulder dystocia. That sounds odd to me. As it was I became another statistic on the CS rates.
I would never go through another induction.

ps is it wrong that I would like to kick those builders in the nethers then jeer at them while they roll around in pain. Evil bastards.

I dont have the numbers to hand but you have to be more than 12 days over before the rate of still birth starts to move...

I still think it would help to demonstrate a relationship between the pain tolerance of women and their birth satisfaction rating...

That way those of us that never stood much of chance of getting through without a lot of help could stop feeling 'weak' and that our 'negative' attitudes had let us down.

It seems like the most obvious thing in the world that childbirth will vary from person to person and baby to baby over everything from painless and simple to excruciatingly painful and very complicated for purely physiological reasons entirely out of our control.

And yet we stupid stupid humans persist in thinking that it was our 'mental attitude' that played the significant deciding factor....we need our collective heads checking out.

entropygirl I agree with you in the respect that we should acknowledge that different women experience pain differently and that X's painful experience was all her own fault because she didn't think as positively as Y.
however... I wouldn't like to take that logic one step further and think that psychological factors should be ignored - that X is physiologically set up to feel more pain and therefore her individual experience might not have been improved by hypnosis, breathing etc. Because whatever pain relief you choose, you are likely to have a period in early labour where medical pain relief is not available. (even in my entirely hospitalised experience, i was only offered co-codomol initially because the MW didn't know I was in labour, so I was glad that I had my own coping strategies) If there's something you can do to lessen your own experience of pain, you would want to know about it, you'd hope that somebody was exploring those avenues and passing that information on to you, without pressurising you to feel that because those options were open, other options (drugs) must then be closed off.
I know that isn't what you are saying but I think sometimes mental attitude is overplayed but other times it's too readily dismissed.

• X's experience was NOT her own fault. Obviously.

To a certain extend I agree that there are also psychological issues to address but it is all a matter of degree. Breathing and attitude can help over come some levels of pain but not all. I actually found the breathing / mental attitude stuff was very useful for getting through some cracked nipple BF pain etc.

But I felt my body was torturing me during childbirth (to a certain extent I felt the anaesthetist that insisted on reading me the full risk list for spinal taps when I was just screaming in animal agony, unable to hear let alone speak, was also torturing me).

I would defy anyone to tell a torture victim that what they really needed was a positive mental attitude and some breathing exercises.

Entropy It seems like the most obvious thing in the world that childbirth will vary from person to person and baby to baby over everything from painless and simple to excruciatingly painful and very complicated for purely physiological reasons entirely out of our control.
And yet we stupid stupid humans persist in thinking that it was our 'mental attitude' that played the significant deciding factor....we need our collective heads checking out.

AND

I would defy anyone to tell a torture victim that what they really needed was a positive mental attitude and some breathing exercises.

Brilliant posts - you're right - 100% right.

Yes, no doubt if you decided to saw your leg off you might lesson the ouch by thinking positively as you saw - but it would still be agony.

The problem with the 'thinking positive' theory it implies its the woman's fault if it hurts. It's just so not true.

This is what entropy said " I was just screaming in animal agony, unable to hear let alone speak"

The problem is that we allow this kind of torture to take place.

I've just seen that gorgeous Charlie Brooker blog on the birth of his and Konnie's baby. Awwwww...

(Agree with Entropy's posts about basic physiology dictating that childbirth will indeed hurt and that it will vary from person to person and baby to baby. Of course.)

I think the attitudes in this country (UK) to pain relief in childbirth are very weird. In Canada, the epidural rate in the two largest provinces is over 60%, and as high as 90% in certain hospitals. Yet the csection rate and intervention rate is much lower than here. In Quebec, the epi rate is 69% and the CS rate is 16%. www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2010/05/18/births-canada-hospital.html The stillbirth rate is also much lower - well that's not hard since we're bottom of the league tables.

Please can the experts on here explain why we can't achieve the same in this country?

There are also potential health benefits to epidurals:
www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/epidural-may-aid-a-womans-long-term-health/article1693704/ On an anecdotal basis, when my son was born, 6 weeks early after a long induction caused by a ruptured placenta, I was immensely glad that, thanks to the epidural, I had managed to sleep through my labour and push him out in two minutes, so I had enough energy to be with him, look after him and pump milk while he was in SCBU. I wouldn't have done it any other way, and despite the emergency nature of his birth, overall the process was much more serene and peaceful, not to mention PAIN FREE, than my daughter's birth in a birthing pool with no drugs.

Epidurals are wrongly maligned in this country because the received ideology, the gospel that midwives hear throughout their course, is that they increase intervention. Maybe it is time they start learning how to help women get their babies out with an epidural and without further intervention, as HCPs seemingly manage just fine in other countries. As it is, women in Britain who want/need intervention are perceived as failures, when in fact it is the midwives system failing them.

That's interesting Primafacie

Prima- is Canada like the States though where an epi is the only form of pain relief available ie no gas and air or pethadine / diamorphine?

No, pethidine (called demerol over there) is available but rarely used during childbirth for obvious reasons - it is not as efficient and has a detrimental effect on the baby.

G&A isn't used.

Primafacie What you wrote is so true and exactly in line with my personal experience.

I needed a long period of clinical psychology treatment for trauma after a so called normal delivery which was brutal and mind blowingly painful beyond all human endurance. I was far from a 'nervous' mum. I walked in calm and relaxed and trusting. Big mistake.

For the second birth - epidural (after a fight) and a perfect, calm totally amazing birth without any pain. I kept being told to 'keep still and lie down' ignored the midwives and gave birth, as the anaesthetist said I could, in an upright position. I KNOW if I had 'done as I was told' I would have needed a ventouse or forceps. (Also had a caesarean and actually that was ok too).

Lots of the interventions are caused by the way HCP deal with women with epidurals - other countries have very high epidural rates and their intervention rates are lower than here.

You are so right about it all being ideological in uk.

Like you say, we should focus on ways to improve epidurals - not tell women to grit their teeth and end up so traumatised some of them can never face having another baby

Primafacie I totally agree, excellent post.

I'm an American who gave birth in the UK and I also find the UK approach to pain relief extremely odd. And yes, I think ideological is a good word to use for a lot of what I heard from midwives, all the way from the labour suite to postnatal.

PS Why does Canada always seem to get things so right?

I think if you could combine certain aspects of Canada (low still birth rate, enlightened approach to pain relief) with certain aspects of Scandanavia (98% BF uptake, amazing BF support) you could have the perfect childbearing experience.....

Just wondering, can we write in our own notes- on the midwife bits?

Geta, do you mean your antenatal notes or your hospital ones? If antenatal, then technically you can as you have them in your possession until you check in to give birth, but I am not sure what consideration this would be given by any HCP - except for your birth plan, which you are meant to write. I'm not sure what you mean by the "midwife bits"?

If you mean your labour notes, no you can't. You won't even see them unless you formally request a copy.

Ushy and Dreaming, thank you .

Dreaming, Canada does plenty of things wrong. Let's start with the weather But certainly it is a country where there is less sexism and women are more empowered, which I am convinced plays a role.