This article has me fuming....thoughts?

[PrincessZ]

I just read this article and I am so shocked at how they can categorically ban cesarean sections!
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2028443/Hospitals-ban-pregnant-women-having-c-sections-cost-cutting-move.html?ITO=google_news_rss_feed

I'm pregnant and I was going to ask for a cesarean. Reading this article has made me lose all hope.

northernruth,

"that's fine if they're paying for it, but if I'm paying for it (through my taxes) then I think I'd rather let the health professionals decide which is the less risky option."

I'm sorry to say that, but this argument is simply cruel and nasty and in fact also quite untrue. They are also paying taxes and most probably won't have 10 babies (so less cost for the NHS all in all) and their babies won't be disabled by being neglected in childbirth and most probably they won't have countless repair operations and won't stop going to work because of incontinence and will keep paying more and more taxes. So there, in fact, if we really count it (but we can't because there are no statistics available), maybe they are even saving your taxes.

RV that's nonsense as you are assuming that all women who have a VB have issues arising that then cost money. Who are "they"? Who is having 10 babies? I only have one.............VB, I didn't have "countless repair operations" and I have never had to take time off work because of incontinence. Neither have any of the other mothers I know who have had VBs.

Not everyone is black and white on this issue - it's not one vs the other, it's horses for courses. A friend of mine has just had her third baby, her first two were home water births and her third was large and breech and she had a section.

I don't mind having a reasoned debate but I wish people would be fucking rational

northernruth

"I don't recall that many women saying they were traumatised by the pain."

Well, maybe we are reading different discussions then, but I recall many, many women who were so traumatise that they never want to go through that ordeal again. I'm not saying that for many others it's not a problem or they even enjoy it.

"I didn't say it wasn't painful, just that it wasn't unbearable (if it were no one would have more than one child)"

That depends of what you personally think is bearable. If unbearable means that you lose your mind or die, than no, it itsn't probably unbearable because many survive it and not quite lose their mind. For me unbearable means that you are in such pain that you actually wish to die on the spot.

"What was your experience of labour?"
None, I just never want to go through that. I don't love pain and humiliation and I don't understand people who think it's a good thing for anyone. As simple as that.

Yet another person who hasn't had a baby telling the rest of us what it's like.

VB doesn't have to be painful - there are lots of pain relief options available, including the one that they use for c sections.

northernruth

"that's nonsense as you are assuming that all women who have a VB have issues arising that then cost money. Who are "they"?"

I've read many threads on women who have issues afterwards and even very disabling issues that prevent them from normal life, even PTSD does that and PND too. They also require costly therapy and drain NHS resources just like the physical issues, which are also quite frequent as I can see on these boards (but you probably can't).

"Who is having 10 babies?"

Usually people who are planning to have big families don't choose ELCS for their first. However, those who choose ELCS usually plan to have one or two children. Again, I'll point you to the OP.

"I only have one.............VB, I didn't have "countless repair operations" and I have never had to take time off work because of incontinence. Neither have any of the other mothers I know who have had VBs."

Well, this is you and you seem to be lucky and happy with your choice. But btw. would you talk to people so openly about having complications? How can you be so sure about the VB mothers you know then? Do you really know perfectly well the state of their health?

"Not everyone is black and white on this issue - it's not one vs the other, it's horses for courses. A friend of mine has just had her third baby, her first two were home water births and her third was large and breech and she had a section."

Exactly! That's what I'm trying to say all this time. Live and let live. It's their body, their baby and their choice.

northernruth

"Yet another person who hasn't had a baby telling the rest of us what it's like."

Is it a requirement to have a baby to be able to discuss female health questions? I don't see one rational argument why it should be.
Besides, I'm not telling you what it was like for you. I can't because only you know that. I'm just debating this question with regard to freedom of choice how to treat our bodies and ourselves.

The heamatoma I got after my first EMCS was EXCRUCITAINGLY PAINFUL, for the record.......

I do agree that more pain medication should be avaliable for labouring women without having to beg for it and recieve when they think you have suffered enough, it is (the only thing) the yanks have the right idea about it. They turn up get in their gown and roll straight over for the epidural. You wouldn't have a tooth out without pain relief so why have a baby out in pain if it is not necessary?

Wormshuffler

I'm not trying to nit-pick here, but EMSC has usually much more complications than ELCS on healthy mothers. And you also probably didn't choose it, rather was forced by necessity to have it. Sorry about that :( It doesn't sound nice.

RV, there are threads discussing issues that arise after birth. Oddly enough there aren't threads about all the many others of us that don't have issues. Mine is not a unique experience (and if you read back you will see that I had a far from "normal" birth.)

Yes you are entitled to discuss women's health issues. But you and the OP have the "issues" all out of proportion. You have spent hours and hours trawling the internet looking for information to justify your fear of the big bad wolf, and somehow seem to have missed the basic point that the vast majority of women who give birth naturally have none of the issues you mention.

And when you eventually do have a child you will realise that your peers will quite happily give you their birth stories in graphic detail, and my friends and I often discuss health issues arising from birth.

I totally support a woman's right to a ELCS if it is warranted, and I am not trying to trivialise anyone's traumatic birth experience, but to grant a more expensive and potentially risky procedure on the NHS is a dereliction of duty on the part of the care givers! As I said before, the money would be MUCH better put to use spent on more midwives. And possibly psychological counselling for those with an irrational fear of birth

In fact RV your position is so poorly argued that I would use the T word had we not been banned from using the T word.........

Ok I seem to have killed the thread (or maybe everyone else has given up) but I have to be off anyway, have my pelvic floor exercises to do and need to set up the commode in the bedroom for tonight.

Northern, make sure you aim it in the pan.

I think its also easy to forget how quickly you forget the actual birth with the new baby and all the emotions that go with it. Yes, sometimes I look back and think about it but I don't generally settle on it and pick it apart bit by bit in my mind.
I had 15 hours from 4cm (I think fairly usual for a 1st) back to back labour and a ventouse, had to stay in one night because of meconium in waters.
Am due again in October and I hope it's a wee bit easier but I am not thinking about it every day, I am thinking my baby will be here soon. I will deal with labour when I have to!

northernruth, why the rolly eyes emoticon after the comment about money being spent on counselling for women with an irrational fear of birth?

I had an ELCS on the NHS recently for my 1st DC, because of a diagnosis of primary tokophobia. It was a great, wonderful, emotional and painfree birth (apart from when the MWs messed up my painkillers for 6 hours. But pain free once I got back on the protocol).

Counselling does not always 'work'. Sometimes it can work to some degree (to allow someone to sit through other people's accounts of VB, for example) - but still leave a woman nowhere near a position where she can contemplate VB herself. A woman doesn't always have time to go through what might be years of counselling, with an uncertain outcome. I'm in my late 30s, with declining fertility.

I didn't feel a second of guilt about the money spent on my ELCS. Admissions at my local A & E on a Saturday night are over 70 percent alcohol related. We all pay for that, me included. My DS has never had a drop of formula, at over a year old, and is in great health. I had an excellent recovery, no post op issues, and spent 2 nights in hospital.

My neighbour who gave birth a few months after me had an awful VB, an infected episiotomy, and ended up struggling with and then giving up BF-ing because she had so few positions she could comfortably feed in during the first few weeks. She's having to have consultants appts, reconstructive work, and all on the NHS, they can't pay to go privately. Apart from having a traumatic experience, she's costing the NHS vastly more than I did.

You get good VBs and bad VBs. Same with CS's. And when you talk about RISK, you need to understand that the same risks hold different values for people. That's why these 'debates' always get so heated. Something you might not see as being particularly important in a birth could be HUGELY significant to another woman, for all sorts of personal reasons. I have no fear of medical environments, for example - but I have read quite a few women on this board who do. Obviously staying out of hospital is incredibly important for them. Now, I don't share that fear, but I don't sneer and scoff at them - I can recognise that it's important for them.

Fruity I am aware that a genuine fear of childbirth exists and if you read my previous posts it is one of a number of circumstances in which I would support ELCS.

The rolling of eyes was because I think both the OP and RV (if they are genuine) are actually hiding their fear of birth behind research and statistics, and I did say to the OP that I thought that if she discussed her fears with her GP then I thought they may well conclude she is a candidate for an ELCS.

You make a good point about medical environments btw - I live in mortal fear of EVER being back on that post natal ward..........

northernruth

"there are threads discussing issues that arise after birth. Oddly enough there aren't threads about all the many others of us that don't have issues. Mine is not a unique experience (and if you read back you will see that I had a far from "normal" birth.)"

I'm not denying that there are women without issues, just like you can't deny that there are women WITH very serious issues. I don't see any real point in this arguement.

"Yes you are entitled to discuss women's health issues."

Thank you for admitting that as a woman I have a right to discuss female health. I thought this was 21st century.....

"But you and the OP have the "issues" all out of proportion. You have spent hours and hours trawling the internet looking for information to justify your fear of the big bad wolf, and somehow seem to have missed the basic point that the vast majority of women who give birth naturally have none of the issues you mention."

Another thank you for proving my point about accussing ELCS people of being crazy loonies. Very rational and logical argument.

Should I repeat again that I never denied that most women don't have any issues? The problem is that no one can guarantee you that you are going to be one of them.

"And when you eventually do have a child you will realise that your peers will quite happily give you their birth stories in graphic detail, and my friends and I often discuss health issues arising from birth."

My peers discuss these issues with me too, thank you for proving another of my points - patronizing this time.

"I totally support a woman's right to a ELCS if it is warranted, and I am not trying to trivialise anyone's traumatic birth experience,"

Sorry, but you are doing just that.

"but to grant a more expensive and potentially risky procedure on the NHS is a dereliction of duty on the part of the care givers!"

Both VB and CS are both risky and both can lead to death, actually VB can lead to infant death of a healthy baby more often than ELCS. My very good friend works with kids with special needs and guess what made them so in majority of cases?

"As I said before, the money would be MUCH better put to use spent on more midwives."

The money should be definitely spent on more staffing, that's right, but not just midwives, but also OBs and anesthesioligists. That way everyone can be happy.

"And possibly psychological counselling for those with an irrational fear of birth"

As I stated above, no one can persuade me that fear of pain and humiliation is irrational, so I don't think any amount on money spent on trying to persuade women otherwise, is not spent too wisely.

fruitybread
"You get good VBs and bad VBs. Same with CS's. And when you talk about RISK, you need to understand that the same risks hold different values for people. That's why these 'debates' always get so heated. Something you might not see as being particularly important in a birth could be HUGELY significant to another woman, for all sorts of personal reasons. I have no fear of medical environments, for example - but I have read quite a few women on this board who do. Obviously staying out of hospital is incredibly important for them. Now, I don't share that fear, but I don't sneer and scoff at them - I can recognise that it's important for them."

Very well said!

northernruth
"In fact RV your position is so poorly argued that I would use the T word had we not been banned from using the T word........."

Just because someone disagrees with you and points out faults in your arguments that doesn't mean that she's a T. How offensive.

"The rolling of eyes was because I think both the OP and RV (if they are genuine) are actually hiding their fear of birth behind research and statistics, and I did say to the OP that I thought that if she discussed her fears with her GP then I thought they may well conclude she is a candidate for an ELCS."

Sorry to dissappoint you, but I'm not hiding anything from myself and certainly don't suffer from tokophobia. I'm not sick when I see pregnant women or when labour is being discussed, although I can imagine how terrible that could be. I became interested in this topic because everybody around me is having babies and I heard different stories from them. So I wanted to know more in case I need it. And yes, I did my Math of acceptable and inacceptable risks for me and the hypothetical baby and came up with ELCS as the only option for me. Please don't worry about your tax money, though, if me and my DH decide to have a baby, it will be in another country.

RV in this country we refer to anaesthetists, rather than anesthesioligists. I'm rather surprised by the coincidence of the OP, who used an assortment of American terms, vanishing and then someone who also has no childbirth experience appearing and presenting very similar arguments, also using American terms and spellings.

PelvicFloorOfSteel

I can assure you that I'm not the OP. I think that I argue and express myself quite differently. And I'm neither American nor British, not even a native speaker of English.

I don't know why we bother. Truly. The real life experience of women who have ACTUALLY given birth is belittled in favour of your more reliable "research". And you call me patronising - how very dare you.

I'm not disappointed that you don't think you have tokophobia when you clearly do. I couldn't give a flying fuck tbh.

"My peers discuss these issues with me too, thank you for proving another of my points - patronizing this time." - I thought you said I couldn't be sure that people discussed their health issues honestly with me? Make your mind up.

You're not picking holes in my argument, you are failing to argue your point with any conviction.

northernruth

"I don't know why we bother. Truly. The real life experience of women who have ACTUALLY given birth is belittled in favour of your more reliable "research". And you call me patronising - how very dare you."

This is all so rude and downright nasty that I'm beginning to really wonder why you bother. Is their something hidden that you don't want to admit to yourself that makes you argue so passionately and quite offensively for VB? Is it just the tax money that bothers you? Really? Misery loves company maybe?

"I'm not disappointed that you don't think you have tokophobia when you clearly do. I couldn't give a flying fuck tbh."

Likewise. I still don't think it is irrational to try to avoid pain and humiliation. I think it is very natural, in fact. No one wants to suffer, however clearly some people get some kick out of it and some people just go with the flow. Whatever flies your or their kite then....

""My peers discuss these issues with me too, thank you for proving another of my points - patronizing this time." - I thought you said I couldn't be sure that people discussed their health issues honestly with me? Make your mind up."

Yes, my peers discuss these things with me, but unfortunately there is a great taboo attached to incontinence issues, so I'm very careful to assume that they tell me all there really is, although some surely do. Besides, I don't talk about these things with everyone, just very close friends, which is I think quite normal. I don't think people talk to near strangers about their sexual health. It is not "research", it's just anedoctal experience, but quite valueble for me.

I'm not arguing for VB. I'm arguing against unnecessary ELCS where it is not medically indicated. And I suffered very little pain in my assisted VB, FWIW.

Taking myself off to my plastic sheeted bed and I'll leave you for one of the other Tena ladies to deal with.

northernruth

"I'm not arguing for VB. I'm arguing against unnecessary ELCS where it is not medically indicated."

But why you bother, really? What is someone else's fanjo (I like this expression) or belly to you? Why do you care at all? Why do you want to force others do something that they don't ever want to do and technology and science allows them not to? What gives you the right to be the judge of their choices?

"And I suffered very little pain in my assisted VB, FWIW."

Good for you. How does it relate to other people's bodies and experiences?

"Taking myself off to my plastic sheeted bed and I'll leave you for one of the other Tena ladies to deal with."

:)))) Good night! Yes, I got the sarcasm, don't you worry.
But it still doesn't want to be make me want to have a VB, just because you had one and are happy with it. This is a nonsensical argument.

God is it that ELCS-obsessed fooltard AGAIN? I thought this had been nipped in the bud and she'd nobbed off back to Canada to find a fella. It's dull now.