not interested in a "magical experience" I just want to meet my baby

[MissyPie]

I've read a lot of posts on here which refer to the "magical experience" of chilbirth, so much so that someone has insinuated that they would prefer an unassisted birth in favour of this "magical experience"

I know some women like to connect with the baby as it is being born and I admire you, however AIBU to say that I'm not interested in how the baby gets here..I just want my baby in my arms and safe & well.

Although I look back fondly on my birth, I pretty much saw it as a "means to an end" and most magical moments have been in the 12 weeks since she was born.

Is there anyone out there who agrees with me? Obviously it's a personal choice but for me - I'd have epidural/drugs (the works) every time!

if you'd seen a pet dog giving birth, you'd know they do get scared, and they do feel pain.

they don't 'hype' the pain like some communities do (those women who are told a normal birh is like some forms of torture - research shows the more painful you believ it wl be, the more painful you report it as..))

but it still hurts - in most cases. some women have genuinely pain free births though - their body just does it that way.

"I'm profoundly glad I've had the opportunity to experience the sense of empowerment and euphoria which is often the result of a successful homebirth. I think those people who've not experienced this have missed out on something very special."

You may think they have missed out but if it was something that they had no wish to experience then they haven't missed out. The OP isn't interested in the 'experience' just wants the baby here.

A few thoughts:

I had a 42 hr labour ending in EmCS, followed by 5 horrible days in HDU while my baby was in SCBU. On day 5 I was sent home with a healthy baby. Next time I gave birth I was initially unsure as to whether I was in labour or not but the very rapid arrival of my baby before I had even had chance to leave my bedroom confirmed I had definitely been in labour. If you asked me what I wanted, the answer would have been 'a healthy baby.' But looking back at the 2 births, one was definitely an infinitely preferable experience than the other - I would say if you gave many women a choice they would choose the 'whoops, here comes my baby' experience rather than the 'sorry we cut you open to get the baby out but we seem to have misplaced everyone who can stick you back together. Oh, and your baby HAS eventually started to breathe!' experience. I think merely the fact that most women would choose the easier approach means that to most women the way their baby gets here DOES matter, not just the fact that they get a healthy baby in the end.

Many people who say 'birth isn't that bad' haven't experienced a bad one. Likewise, many people who reckon birth cannot be painfree and euphoric haven't experienced that either. I have been peculiarly lucky enough to experience 2 births at the very opposite extremes, and I can say that birth can be unexpected, miraculous, horrific, euphoric, and an infinite number of other feelings. I DID have a pain free labour and birth and I needed almost peeling off the ceiling with euphoria for a week. But I put as much effort into the preparation for the other birth which nearly killed me and my baby. Earning it had nothing to do with it - it was sheer luck.

I need to add that mammals do suffer in birth. I have horses and know many people who's horses have struggled and suffered in birth. The National Foaling Bank is set up to pair up mares who's foals have died with foals who's mothers died giving birth to them. Pain and death happens with other mammals during birth.

"I knew that my dcs were the kind of babies who would probably not have survived had Nature been allowed to take its course"

I don't know anything about your births Cory, but I remember saying the same after the difficult forceps delivery of my first baby who was 9lbs 6oz. Following the spontaneous birth four years later of my second baby who was 2lbs heavier I began to think differently. If I had given birth in the US the likelihood is that my first, second and third babies would all have been c/s births, because of my health problems and obstetric history.

We used to have a c/s rate of less than 5% in the 1960's. Now in some hospitals nearly 1 in 3 births is operative. Back in the 1960's there was higher maternal and infant mortality than there is now - but nothing, nothing, nothing, approaching 30%. Or 10%. Or even 5%. Most maternal deaths were due to eclampsia. And most neonatal deaths were the result of prematurity and infection.

To me that suggests that the MAJORITY of those women today who are convinced they couldn't have got through childbirth with a live baby in good health, without serious interventions COULD have, with different patterns of care.

It's sad to think that what what is done in the name of 'safer childbirth' to the majority of labouring women in hospital probably does more harm than good to them and their babies.

Seriously - if the quest for happier births results in less unnecessary intervention then I'm all for it.

"You may think they have missed out but if it was something that they had no wish to experience then they haven't missed out".

I don't want to run the London marathon, but I've got no doubt I'm missing out on the sense of achievement other people get from doing it.

"The OP isn't interested in the 'experience' just wants the baby here."

Oh please - we all just want the baby here. But if you can have a better experience getting through the process why on earth wouldn't you want that?

Childbirth can be seriously, seriously horrible. Even when you end up with a healthy baby. Why wouldn't you want to come away from it saying 'actually that was amazing', instead of 'actually that was completely shit - thank god it's over'!

I think it is best to be very open minded and not have set ideas before you start.

I gave birth in a very supportive environment in a hospital committed to listening to the woman and providing the most positive experience possible, Cleofartra and I had had very good preparation from my ante-natal class, so hard to see that the pattern of care would have made any difference.

My caesarian was the result of my underweight ds's heartbeat dropping drastically during early labour (I am convinced I was hours away from giving birth). Both my children were IUGR and premature. As for me, my blood pressure was only kept under some kind of control by maximum doses of the BP drugs (which I am still on 14 yrs later), I had been bleeding throughout pregnancy, I had pre-eclampsia and had been admitted to hospital weeks earlier after suffering a bad reaction to a medications, so wasn't in brilliant shape myself.

I do think that the attitude of the healthcare professionals can make all the difference- but that applies equally in a case of emergency: I still remember my emc as a positive experience because the people who helped us made it that. They were lovely and supportive, I had skin to skin after the birth and was supported with the breastfeeding (hospital really committed to bf).

But of course there was also the fact that I had had plenty of time to consider that I might never have this baby.

Personally I think you get what you get. You can plan all you like, you can practice your breathing, hire a tens machine, do all the positive thinking in the world.

You just cannot tell in advance how easy and painfree your birth will be. Why restrict yourself in advance? Best to think, well I would like this to happen, but failing that, I would like me and baby to survive the experience....

Yikes Cory, must have been a scary.

I do feel hugely grateful for modern medicine, just sad that so much medical input is squandered on labouring women who don't need it and don't benefit from it.

Not as scary as it might have been had the hospital been less supportive. So I am all in favour of making things nice for labouring mothers, made a huge difference to me. Wouldn't say giving birth was the highlight of my life though- I've had a few others which probably rank higher on the achievement scale- but it was not bad. Have found bonding with babies and getting to know them more exciting than the actual labour though.

Ironically, both dcs emerged unscathed from childbirth but were later found to have a genetic condition which has caused pain and disability in later years. Have no idea if this would have affected the way they coped with birth, but I do know it affected dd's ability to breastfeed.

I'm not sure why I can't plan to have an intervention free birth but if the situation changes opt to have interventions.

I don't see that having this approach makes me a bad person.

Birth choices are a personal thing. whatever choice I make should be what I think is best for me and my baby.

I shouldn't be criticized for wanting a home birth nor should the person next to me be criticized for wanting a C-Section.

All woman should be given access to high quality antenatal care to help them make decision based on their own circumstances as well as access to high quality qualified staff to attend births.

hazchem puts it perfectly. I had a fairly long but very good home birth. I consider that I was both well-prepared and lucky. I'm sure mooer didn't mean to be inflammatory, but it really does rile me when people imply that it's somehow your 'fault' if you don't achieve nirvana while giving birth. I know for a fact that if I'd had a back-to-back labour, for example, I'd have been at the doors of the local hospital quicker than you can say epidural!

I have friends who opted for ELCS for their first and/or second births for very good reasons, and had a wonderful experience for the same reasons that I did: it was calm, free of fear and with bearable levels of pain.

As for an unassisted birth - I can't think of anything less magical. In communities where a birth unassisted by any medical professional would be the norm, I imagine the women would give anything to have the help and encouragement of a professional midwife!

"Have found bonding with babies and getting to know them more exciting than the actual labour though"

I vomited, cried, whinged, trembled and moaned through my second and third labours (first one had an epidural and pethidine and wasn't able to do much more than puke, and smile weakly at whoever was fiddling with my bits at the time).

I found my second two births 'magical' in the sense that when the labours were OVER I thought - YEE HAAAA! And felt completely ecstatic and euphoric. So yes - I describe the labours as 'magical' but actually it was the hormonal and emotional 'hangover' (which I had for days after delivery and which I can still recall with intense satisfaction now) from having a normal birth, unmedicated birth that resulted in the feeling, not the labour itself, which in both cases was hideously painful.

"smugly announcing you will give birth at home,in a pool, with only whale noise and a doula and some aromatherapy oils is setting oneself up for a fall"

Why?

Most women are capable of having a normal birth. Why shouldn't she have a waterbirth with a doula at home? Lots of people do it.

If you were going to be running a marathon, nobody would think you were an arse for going off and buying a fantastic pair of trainers and working with a good training partner in preparation. OK - it might turn out that you injure yourself in the first mile, or that you're ill on the day, but that doesn't invalidate the preparation you've done to try to help yourself.

I think - hurrah for that girl for having the courage to go all out in an attempt to have a good birth. As long as she's aware that she may need to transfer into hospital and have interventions if the birth doesn't progress normally.

As for 'taking the piss' out of your fear - well, if she really did do that then she was silly and unkind. She probably wouldn't feel bad about being such a silly cow though if she knew what you're thinking now.

And would have to say - she probably looks back at her birth and thinks that she made the right decision to plan for a homebirth. I know a number of people, myself included, who have transferred in from a homebirth who look back on their labours and feel really grateful they can say 'I did the best I could to cope with my labour, and I'm really glad I went to all that trouble'.

I know for a fact that if I'd had a back-to-back labour, for example, I'd have been at the doors of the local hospital quicker than you can say epidural! ..

but you don't. you don't know that. a back-to-back is not necesarily longer or more painful than a 'normal' labour.

you might have had a previous back-to-back that was like that, then a second that popped out like a cork at a particularly good party. Or not - that's the thing.

the stats are pretty clear on it: birth choices matter and do influence the outcome. you can't know for certain in advance - but you can make choices that make it more likely to go well.

"birth choices matter and do influence the outcome. you can't know for certain in advance - but you can make choices that make it more likely to go well".

Yes - you're right. That's why it interests me that so women exercise their right to choose where, and with whom, to have their baby. Maybe it's because they're frightened of this:

"smugly announcing you will give birth at home,in a pool, with only whale noise and a doula and some aromatherapy oils is setting oneself up for a fall"

So much easier to hand yourself over to someone else and let them take responsibility for what happens to you in labour, than make pro-active choices to try to give yourself the best chance of a normal, healthy birth.

It's like 'well, at least if it all goes shit-shaped I won't have made myself look like a naive idiot for hoping for something better'.

"I know for a fact that if I'd had a back-to-back labour, for example, I'd have been at the doors of the local hospital quicker than you can say epidural! .."

I've had two labours with posterior babies. Both long, both very unpleasant and painful. One involved an epidural, the other involved me staying at home moaning and weeping onto the shoulder of my IM. It's not inevitable that all long, difficult labours prove to be 'unbearable'. There are so many factors which influence the way you cope with pain - one major one being the midwife who's looking after you.

I wasn't particularly interested in trying to create a 'magical' experience. Childbirth, is tough, hard work, and very very painful.

I did, however, want to try to make the experience as safe for my baby and me as possible - which for two of my births meant naturally. One had to be a cs for medical reasons. I certainly didn't want to be drugged up to the eyeballs or numbed up from the waist down - but that wasn't about trying to make it mystic. I think most women who really aim for natural birth probably feel the same. We're not all hippy tree huggers you know!

Did it occur to you that she might have been very scared herself and that her comments about 'people do it all over the world etc' (a very, very common cliche spouted by anxious pregnant women) might have been an attempt to shore up her own feelings?

Didn't sound to me like she was 'preaching', only that she made a couple of silly, tactless comments.

"I wouldn't wish a bad birth on anyone"

"I fucking pissed myself when I heard she'd transferred into hospital at 3cm because she found the pain was unbearable" comes across as major 'I told you so' gloating at someone else's troubles.

tbh I am not sure that I was either aiming for a magical experience or desperate to hand myself over to somebody else because I couldn't face responsibility; it doesn't have to be one or the other

I think it was more a case of after having spent weeks in hospital (in both pregnancies) and talking to women who had had all sorts of different experiences (including some pretty horrendous ones, like repeated stillbirths and eclamptic fits), I was genuinely developing an attitude of "well, I'll go with whatever happens and try to make the best of it". Kind of prepared to roll with the punches. Perhaps more businesslike than romantic, but it worked well for me. I did experience euphoria looking at both babies- but it was more a "oh, aren't they wonderful" than "haven't I done well". And the euphoria was just as great after my caesarian, where I obviously hadn't done a thing. Except keep this baby alive in my body despite the difficulties.

To sum up, I don't think you can dictate to any woman what they ought to be feeling or what hour of their motherhood ought to be the most wonderful.

But I do think we should do everything we can to avoid women being traumatised by giving birth. Information, listening to the mother, a relaxing environment, as much choice as possible etc etc. Absolutely.

I've done both ways, heavily medically managed birth with all the drugs going and an epidural (horrific experience had PTSD after that one) and also a blissfull speedy home birth with only a sniff of gas and air. It was an awesome experience and the natural endorphin high was incredible but really it is a great luxury and not the be all and end all. Since then I've had two miscarriages and a stillbirth and now am due to be induced with baby no 4, fully medically managed again on Monday and all I care about is having a healthy living baby, labour is just one day out of a lifetime! A nice labour and birth is the cherry on the top for the lucky few, one of those things that is wonderful to aim for if you can but seriously not something to really worry about if it doesn't work out.

Mooer - your posts are some of the most unhelpful I've read on Mumsnet. You've given birth once - that hardly makes you an expert! Bully for you that you had a great experience, but I wouldn't count on any subsequent births being the same. So much of childbirth is down to luck and genetics. I think the OP is absolutely right - and it's totally unhelpful to go into it with unrealistic expectations which leave you feeling cheated and a failure when they don't come to pass. The fact is you spend all your first pregnancy feeling anxious about the birth - once the baby's born you hardly give it a second thought. It is a means to an end (and that's always worth bearing mind when your in the middle of it - it wwon't last forever!). Glad you are enjoying your magical moments now MissyPie

"most people when anxious\worried about something they have no direct knowledge or experience of shut the fuck up"

Not at an antenatal class they don't!

She was making general comments about giving birth. That's what people do in antenatal classes - talk about their expectations about what childbirth is like. And if arrived at the class with unrealistic expectations and left without being challenged by either the other mothers (especially if they've already given birth) and by the teacher - well, I'd say that was a bit poor.

"Why should she be allowed to be take the piss-she made repeated pronouncements, not just to me"

If she really was 'taking the piss' and saying things that were personally offensive to you she should have been challenged on the spot by the teacher and other parents. If she wasn't then that was very poor. But given your comments that you were 'fainting and crying' from fear at times during the class I'm wondering how objective and accurate your observations of her attitude could even be.

"and yes,i did piss myself laughing,not gloating"

Gloating means taking 'malicious satisfaction'. You took pleasure in the fact that she found the pain of childbirth unendurable. You were gloating. Very unpleasant.

"and is making pronouncements based on nothing..."

My comments were made not in response to nothing, but in response to your post which I felt was unkind and disingenuous.