What do mumsnetters think of freebirthing?

[withorwithoutyou]

Just wondered what people on here think of freebirthing as I've never seen it discussed on here before.

My gut feeling is that it's dangerous and an unnecessary risk but I've never really heard the positives - does anyone know much about it, or have experience of it?

We will have to agree to disagree spudulika. It is dangerous to put your life and your unborn DCs life at risk. It is irresponsible to let people think this is OK.

To each their own but I think people forget that it's the baby's birth and not the mothers.

Alot of people seem far more concerned with having a romantic birthing experience than the consequences. IMO all that matters is having a healthy child. On the child's 18th birthday will you remember or even care that you didn't have a home birth, etc.

Homebirths are not freebirths.

Exactly A1980-it is the equivalent of 'bridezilla'-the experience must come first. The DC couldn't give two hoots about the birth. It is the next 18yrs that count-not one day.

Noone is saying there is anything wrong with home births-only if you deliberately don't call a midwife.

A1980 was talking about homebirths etc

"It is dangerous to put your life and your unborn DCs life at risk. It is irresponsible to let people think this is OK"

But those who choose to have their baby in this way don't believe that they ARE putting themselves or their babies at ADDITIONAL risk.

And at the moment there isn't clear evidence that this particular group does have significantly poorer outcomes than women birthing in hospital.

"Alot of people seem far more concerned with having a romantic birthing experience"

You have no idea what women who choose to freebirth are concerned with if you haven't ever canvassed their opinions. This is what you THINK they believe, and you think it because you start from the position that these people are a) stupid and b) selfish.

"To each their own but I think people forget that it's the baby's birth and not the mothers"

Oh let's just cut them out at 39 weeks then. Given that there's evidence that elective c/s is marginally safer for babies than risking an emergency c/s.

You know - midwives, who are the ones whose skills and opinions are being rejected by those who want to go it alone, and who are the people who will be dealing with the terrible aftermath of a freebirth if it goes wrong, are VASTLY more compassionate and understanding about this issue than the women on this thread.

That's the view I took. Twice. I couldn't BEAR the thought of something going wrong for my baby. It's not for everyone though, obviously.

"Oh let's just cut them out at 39 weeks then. Given that there's evidence that elective c/s is marginally safer for babies than risking an emergency c/s."

That's the view I took. Twice. I couldn't BEAR the thought of something going wrong for my baby. It's not for everyone though, obviously.

I expect that midwives are more understanding and compassionate when things go wrong because they are paid to be and it is their job. Those of us who are are not involved can just be blunt and say that it was irresponsible and self indulgent.
If people have really bad experiences of medical staff, and it is so important,they can save up and get a private midwife-of their choosing.
I don't believe, that as mammals, women have ever crept off to have babies alone (as mentioned earlier) they have been part of a community and would always have someone to help. Imagine the sheer terror of going off alone and things going wrong. We seem to gloss over the fact that death in childbirth was so common-delve back in family history and every family will find at least one-either mother or baby or most likely both.

"they can save up and get a private midwife-of their choosing"

Yes. It'll definitely be something someone on benefits is able to do. Not.

"I don't believe, that as mammals, women have ever crept off to have babies alone"

You might not believe it but it in all cultures at all points throughout history, a proportion of women have chosen to give birth alone.

From Sheila Kitzinger's 'Rediscovering Childbirth':

"Women of the tribal people in the Kalahari desert of Botswana and Namibia in southern Africa are exceptional in that with their second and subsequent births they do not expect help from other women during birth. Yet they, too, see birth as a transforming experience which draws on spiritual energy. They are proud of giving birth out of doors, in the bush, alone. While men dare death by going into trances and hunting antelope, women accept responsibility for birth. They believe that the only enemy is fear. Women aim to enter a "powerful altered state of consciousness, one in which great learning and personal growth are possible" (1). The solitary birth experience is seen as an important process in maturation, in becoming an adult able to be powerful, responsive and productive....In West Africa, among the Bariba of the People's Republic of Benin, unassisted, solitary birth is also the ideal."

There are other anthropological accounts of women birthing alone in Native American communities in the past.

"I expect that midwives are more understanding and compassionate when things go wrong because they are paid to be and it is their job"

I think it's got more to do with the fact that they spend a lot of time talking to women and listening to them. They value women's individual feelings and experiences and take their fears seriously. You don't. And you don't know anyone who's chosen to give birth without a health professional present so you feel free to stereotype and be judgemental.

"Imagine the sheer terror of going off alone and things going wrong"

Amazing really that women experience 'sheer terror' in hospital too when things go wrong. They should be feeling absolutely fine, shouldn't they, because we all know that DOCTORS CAN FIX EVERYTHING.

Really exotic fruit - can you not take on board that women who give birth unassisted DON'T HAVE THE SAME FEELINGS OR EXPECTATIONS AS YOU DO.

Seriously - try to make a conceptual leap. Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a minute.

I realise that they don't have the same feelings or expectations as me-my entire point is that it is the health of the baby that matters and it really isn't all about the mother and having a wonderful experience, she should stick to trying to make it a wonderful experience after she has made sure that someone with knowledge is on immediate hand.

I always realise that people are insecure in their choices when they nit pick their way through my entire posts, sentence by sentence, instead of just writing a reply. It only ever happens when someone is very alternative and always on the defensive.

The people of the kalahari desert all seem to be about 'me' and not the baby. Personally I couldn't care less how spiritually transforming my mother found my birth.

I know this is a serious thread but your last post really made me laugh.

'The people of the Kalahari desert all seem to be about 'me' '

hahaha

Having just said that I hate having my posts dissected word by word, I don't want to cut and paste but :

transforming experience
drawing on spiritual energy
proud to give birth alone
great learning and personal growth

me, me, me.

How about the more sensible option of having help and a safe birth? I do note that even they are not stupid enough to do it alone the first time.

If they want all the above I would suggest that they compete with the men-go into the trance and kill the antelope. There are lots of ways to face fear without endangering the baby.

"is that it is the health of the baby that matters and it really isn't all about the mother and having a wonderful experience"

You keep making this comment. Can you answer this? Do you REALLY think that mothers who choose to give birth without a health professional present actually DON'T CARE about the health of their babies? That you believe they are consciously and deliberately taking a very great risk with their baby's life.

Sorry to harp on this point, but you keep ignoring it. Can you not accept that some women make this choice because they believe it will result in a more gentle and better birth FOR THEIR BABY and not just for themselves? That they really believe they're giving their baby the best start possible, with an intervention free, drug free birth?

Disagree - with reference to the known FACTS preferably - about how risky freebirth is, but perhaps at least acknowledge that women's motives in making this choice aren't completely immoral.

"I always realise that people are insecure in their choices when they nit pick their way through my entire posts, sentence by sentence, instead of just writing a reply."

I'm certainly not insecure in my choices. They worked out very well for me, despite being unconventional (I had a planned homebirth with an IM following a high risk pregnancy). I would worry if any friend or relative of mine was planning an unassisted delivery and I would gently try to persuade them to find a different route to the birth they wanted. I'm not defending freebirth here as a 'good' option for women or for babies (although for the people I've known who've done it, it turned out to be great), just trying to have a deeper and non-judgemental discussion about the feelings, beliefs and expectations that lie behind this unusual choice. Of course I'm going to address the points you make one by one. We're engaging with a discussion. Or I'm trying to at least. Maybe if you tried addressing the points I've made one by one you wouldn't simply keep repeating the same unkind, self-righteous comments you've made throughout this thread. Honestly - you only have to say it once. If you say it 10 times, it doesn't make it any more reasonable or true.

spudulika - your post about the Kalahari women confirmed my view that you are a bit loopy.
From Sheila Kitzinger's 'Rediscovering Childbirth':

"Women of the tribal people in the Kalahari desert of Botswana and Namibia in southern Africa are exceptional in that with their second and subsequent births they do not expect help from other women during birth. Yet they, too, see birth as a transforming experience which draws on spiritual energy. They are proud of giving birth out of doors, in the bush, alone. While men dare death by going into trances and hunting antelope, women accept responsibility for birth. They believe that the only enemy is fear. Women aim to enter a "powerful altered state of consciousness, one in which great learning and personal growth are possible" (1). The solitary birth experience is seen as an important process in maturation, in becoming an adult able to be powerful, responsive and productive....In West Africa, among the Bariba of the People's Republic of Benin, unassisted, solitary birth is also the ideal."

I would have thought the aside from fear, enemies in unassisted childbirth include PPH, shoulder dystocia, obstetric fistula, the list goes on...or does seeing birth as a transforming experience magically negate the possibility of all these nasties?

Airy fairy selfcentred nonsense and exactly what I would expect from an advocate of home and freebirth.

And in answer to your last post, I do think that mothers who give birth without a health professional care more about their own experience than their child's. Or else they are just exceptionally stupid and naive.

Which is why I have said it 10 times- because it reasonable and true that women who want to dismiss all experienced help either care more about their own experience or they are exceptionally stupid and naive-there is no other explanation-or not one that has convinced me so far.

Spudulika - just to say in reply to your post last night - yes I am entitled to my opinion - I am not sure if you have realised this yet but this is an area where there is no "right" or "wrong". Your post was patronising.

"I can't imagine a woman whose labour is not progressing because of the position or size of her baby would simply sit down and die from non-productive contractions. "

The point is - I had no idea that my baby was in severe distress even though I thought my labour was progressing.

Wouldn't have had a clue if I had been on my own.

Generally I would respect any woman's views on how she wants her baby delivered-we are all different. But this seems to be a black and white case (one of the few-usually there are shades of grey) and to deliberately choose to have a baby without experienced help is wrong-full stop. Also irresponsible tell women that is OK as a choice. I can't see any medical practitioner giving it their blessing.