What do mumsnetters think of freebirthing?

[withorwithoutyou]

Just wondered what people on here think of freebirthing as I've never seen it discussed on here before.

My gut feeling is that it's dangerous and an unnecessary risk but I've never really heard the positives - does anyone know much about it, or have experience of it?

Death from PPH is less if an issue in developed countries because women have access to immediate transfusion services and specialised obstetric procedures which are most readily (and almost exclusively) in hospitals.

"Death from PPH is less if an issue in developed countries because women have access to immediate transfusion services"

And of course the fact that malnourished women suffering from malaria and other diseases may already be compromised and that therefore a serious bleed with no recourse to any (never mind timely) safe transfusion service is always going to be more of a problem.

"Anyone who does it is also expecting the emergency services to rush to assistance when they get it wrong"

I had a homebirth with a midwife. I expected the emergency services to rush to my assistance. Was I being unreasonable?

Of course not, spudulika. Entirely different.

Just interested in what you mean by 'get it wrong'.

If a woman plans a homebirth and has serious complications requiring transfer then couldn't you argue that she wouldn't have needed an ambulance in the first place if she'd just been sensible and had her baby in hospital in the first place?

Or those women who try to stay at home as long as possible in labour before going into hospital? Shouldn't THEY have gone in when they were contracting 3 in 10, instead of waiting longer so that they go in at 9cm. Are they selfish fools for putting themselves in a situation where they might need emergency help if the labour takes an unexpected turn?

Why so different for a free-birthing mum?

Mums are generally just doing their best to have a decent and straightforward birth. It's sad that people feel the need to be so vituperative about the ones making unconventional choices. They are motivated by the same impulse.

I don't mind unconventional choices -I just don't like irresponsible ones that risk the baby.
No one knows, whether in hospital or at home, if there will be complications. At least they have a medical practitioner on hand to be able to tell whether they need additional, more experienced, help with special equipment.
You can't tell if you leave it too late at home. With my 3rd I didn't realise that I had been in labour all night! I was already in the right place which was just as well as I would never had got there in time. It wasn't my intention.
Why on earth would someone want to go it alone?

"Why on earth would someone want to go it alone?"

Because they believe - probably rightly - that they're less likely to have problems with their labours if they aren't interfered with in any way during labour.

And some people have major anxieties about interacting with health professionals and they can't help reacting in this way. You can't 'talk them out of it' any more than you can talk someone out of being scared of spiders.

There are women who believe that having someone watching and monitoring the labour will diminish their ability to give birth efficiently and well - will actually have impact on the physiology of labour. And they have got something you know - there are many midwives who strongly believe that there are women who labour best unobserved. We are mammals after all, and this is true for most mammals, who hide away from others to give birth.

And tbh, it's not beyond the realms of possibility for a mother to feel bullied and pressured by a midwife at home, just like she might at hospital.

So what do they want to happen when they do have a problem? Just be left by the 'bullying' staff or do they actually want them to step in with their superior knowledge?
I can't see why you need to be seen by anyone until the last minute. On all 3 occasions I have told the staff, politely,'excuse me but I am about to have the baby'-they never take it seriously and then it has been all systems go when they realise I am speaking the truth! Why do you need hours of monitoring? You can do it without, but have them on hand when you are ready.
I never had a birth plan or told them that I didn't want to be seen, I simply didn't mention the contractions until they were getting very painful and by then it was always too late for anything other than gas and air. There didn't seem a lot of point earlier.

"Just be left by the 'bullying' staff or do they actually want them to step in with their superior knowledge?"

What do you think?

"I can't see why you need to be seen by anyone until the last minute"

The majority of emc happen during the first stage of labour, and are triggered by concerns about the baby's heart rate.

"Why do you need hours of monitoring?"

NICE guidelines recommend fetal monitoring every 15 minutes throughout the first stage of labour (once the mother is in active labour).

You'd presume there is an evidence base for this.

In any case, I note you have just ignored the point I made about mothers sometime being frightened of medical staff. Just gone straight back to sneering about them thinking 'they know it all'. Very unpleasant.

Would also want to add - as for your comment about staff having 'superior knowledge', obstetric history is littered with stories of horrific injuries caused to mothers and babies in the name of 'doctors knowing best' about ho to manage childbirth. Midwifery history isn't unblemished on that score either. IMO it's very dangerous to encourage women to think that their knowledge about their own bodies and their babies is always going to be trumped by the view of someone with a medical or midwifery degree.

Good doctors and midwives honour women's beliefs about their bodies and their births, even if sometimes they don't agree with them.

Unless unplanned - ie everything is happening so quickly my view is this is totally irresponsible. It is also selfish. There is more than one person involve - ie the baby as well who has no choice.

Although people have talked about infection (completely true) there are other reasons why people die when freebirthing.

"there are other reasons why people die when freebirthing"

Are you privy to reputable research examining outcomes for freebirthing mothers and their babies?

Would you like to link us to it?

there is no reason to be aggressive spudulika - as with everyone else I am giving my opinion. I have not exhaustively been researching this subject - however, I think this is is common sense - you would not expect all deaths to be due to infection? I personally had a baby who couldn't fit through the vaginal canal - if I had been in a free-birthing situation I would have died?

I can't do links - but this is interesting

www.who.int/whr/2005/chapter4/en/index1.html

"I have not exhaustively been researching this subject"

Dare I suggest you haven't really 'researched' this topic at all?

" - however, I think this is is common sense - you would not expect all deaths to be due to infection?"

Not sure quite what you mean about infection. Or common sense.

"I personally had a baby who couldn't fit through the vaginal canal - if I had been in a free-birthing situation I would have died?"

I can't imagine a woman whose labour is not progressing because of the position or size of her baby would simply sit down and die from non-productive contractions.

She'd give up and go into hospital.

In fact here's a story of a woman who'd planned a homebirth who did just that:

here

Honestly - from reading the comments on this thread you'd think that women who choose to freebirth are all so bonkers they'd deliberately choose to sit down and die at home rather than go into hospital when their labours go wrong.

I can see you are worked up about this and obviously it means a lot to you. which I respect - However, like you I am entitled to my view - sorry I stand by what I said.

Yes, you're entitled to your opinion. Even if you're wrong.

I can't see why mothers are frightened of medical staff-they are there to help and they do the job because they enjoy it. Their purpose isn't to bully the patient.
You are not going to be a lot of help to your DC if every time you meet officialdom in the next 18yrs you hide away and become a victim. Stand up to it. If you don't like the staff say so and get someone else. Don't put your baby's life at risk because of it. You can arrange a home birth and have some say in the midwife. Freebirth seems to be saying that any doctor or midwife , or even all doctors and midwives, are going to be set on giving you a horrible birth experience.
I haven't read anything that doesn't convince me that they are self indulgent women who put themselves first.

exotic I am 'frightened' of medical staff because I spent two years looking after my DD who had cancer. We spent most of that time in hospitals. I watched her suffer a great deal and saw things that no-one should have to see.

Hospitals to me mean pain, horror, fear and death. I have PTSD.

One of my surviving children has a lot of appointments and his brothers have all the normal ones. They have never missed one. I take them to everything. It takes me several days to recover.

I dont have a phobia but I do have a quite serious anxiety disorder. It impacts on my life a lot but I do all I can to prevent it impacting on my children.

I am NOT an advocate of freebirthing. I think it is possible to have a good, safe homebirth with an understanding midwife.

But I think your comments re fear of medical staff are harsh.

I can see where you are coming from, I have had a DC seriously ill in hospital and have hated it but I am am thankful he was there-the alternative was that he would be dead!

Of course.

But a prolonged period of stress and high anxiety levels and witnessing trauma etc can wreck havoc that can take many years to deal with.

Hospitals and medical sounds/smells/sights etc can be triggers that cause flashbacks and distress which can cause real problems.

Not something I thought would be great in labour. That is why I went for homebirths. Keep the medical triggers down to a minimum, stress levels down whilst giving birth in a safe and managed environment.

I dont hate drs and nurses and hospitals. I LOVE them. They tried to save my child. But they terrify me on in a way that I have no control over.

Home births are fine-I have nothing whatever against them! You just need to call a midwife when you go into labour-one that you should have been able to build up a relationship with and explain your fears.I'm sure that you should be able to find a sympathetic one with empathy.
To say that you won't have anyone there, because you have had bad experiences, makes it all about you, whereas the baby should come first. They are far more important than your feelings.

"I can't see why mothers are frightened of medical staff-they are there to help and they do the job because they enjoy it. "

Yes - because unlike teachers, mechanics, lawyers etc, health professionals are ALWAYS brilliant at their jobs, always competent, and always supported by their institutions to practice in an optimal way. Oh, and bullying doesn't exist in the health service.

"Stand up to it. If you don't like the staff say so and get someone else."

You just don't get it do you?

" Don't put your baby's life at risk because of it".

People can't help their feelings, no matter how much bossy individuals tell them to 'pull themselves together'.

Try it with someone with a spider phobia. When they say they're terrified of spiders just say 'don't be silly! it's not going to hurt you!', then pick up a big hairy one and drop it into their lap. See what happens.

"You can arrange a home birth and have some say in the midwife."

What rubbish! Unless you have a case-loading team you will get who ever is free on the night. In theory you could send her away if you didn't like her. In practice it never happens. Because labouring women are not usually up to dealing with this type of conflict while also trying to deliver their babies.

"Freebirth seems to be saying that any doctor or midwife , or even all doctors and midwives, are going to be set on giving you a horrible birth experience."

No it's not. Women do it because they believe that the presence of a health professional will prevent them having the truly undisturbed birth that they believe is most likely to result in a safe and easy delivery. OK - they're doing it because they feel it will give them an easier birth, which is better for them and better for their baby. And you know, going on what evidence there is -THEY ARE USUALLY RIGHT.

"I haven't read anything that doesn't convince me that they are self indulgent women who put themselves first."

Sigh. Because you're not listening.

As i said, I am not an advocate for freebirthing. But PTSD isnt really a 'feeling'.

If I couldnt have had a homebirth I would have not had another baby rather than go down the freebirth route.

So thank God for homebirths and my two youngest DCs