Your child freedom formula / child anxiety programmes - thread 2

[Psuedoshoes]

Carrying on the discussion of YCFF and other similar programmes...

Link to previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/child_adolescent_mental_health/4239684-your-child-freedom-formula-has-anyone-tried-it?msgid=108493516#108493516

I don't get the impression it is an MLM.

The impression I get is that it is a very expensive, support 'group' for anxious parents of anxious teens. All dressed up as a special formula with a very hard sales emotive technique.

I think there would be some benefit, as just feeling there is someone there to hold your hand 3 times a day for as long as needed and to point out obvious things you as a parent are doing that don't help the situation will be beneficial. Plus sessions for the young person so they feel less alone.

I question however whether any of these benefits will be sustained and continue to increase once the initial euphoria has worn off.

An MLM is characterised by recruiting downlines and buying stock yourself, fake it til you make it, and don't let the haters get you down.

I guess I was wondering that because Martin has advertised for coaches, quoting that they can earn up to £40k per year. And he himself said he earns £95k per year.

This one

I agree entirely with Teen's post. Although, if you're able to become a "mentor" by paying them a few thousand pounds and then subsequently draw a wage - what's the word for that kind of model? I can appreciate why "MLM!" might've jumped into some people's minds.

From what I have seen the whole High Ticket circuit is quite circle-jerky, different coaches trading reviews and sticking up for other coaches when called upon. Elements of the same behaviour you might see in traditional MLM businesses.

In my opinion there isn't anything altruistic about this program or the Robins' intentions. I haven't seen them make posts about about many children they have "cured", yet I have seen them make multiple posts bragging about how much money they are stuffing into their bank account. It is, with the help of Facebook, a VERY unethical and shady license to print money.

Hi SwanShaped, I thought the £95k figure was just in relation to one months sales? In which case this corroborates another post that Sam made regarding the HTCA (high ticket coaching academy) model in which she said they’d made £110k in one month! Eeek!!! That’s a lot of anxious parents of anxious teens.

I completely agree with Teens excellent summary above; the drive seems totally money focused and this does not sit at all comfortably with the service being offered which (regardless of whether it’s coaching or therapy is taking advantage of people who are in a vulnerable purchasing position.

It’s interesting as today - and I don’t know why - I feel quite resilient and ready and willing to state my views.

Unfortunately I imagine it won’t be long before someone posts accusing me of being unfair or out to get YCFF...hey ho!

@ConcernedObserver I was typing as you posted your excellent post above - much better wording than my post but I think you got the gist.

@SwanShaped

This one

Interesting that they are trying to recruit "school leavers based in Europe" - it would not be possible to do an enhanced DBS check on anyone outside the UK.

I guess what I don’t know, and what made me think of MLM, is whether the Robins get some of the money that the newly recruited coaches earn. Like in an MLM where you get some of your downline’s profit. Except rather than selling make up or vitamins or whatever, you’re selling coaching courses. And also, the massive amounts of salary that people are quoting on the high ticket fb group. When they’re only working 10 hours a week. Maybe it’s not an MLM but it has the same tactics. As in, promise the world, very vague on how you actually earn that money, the only people who don’t earn that money are the ones who don’t put the effort in. And you also have an initial investment, as is stated on the fb page. Whatever it is, it’s shady.

Also, no way do they earn £95k per month. That’s just ludicrous.

And that fb post, are they really trying to say that school leavers from Europe can earn £40k in a year, no experience necessary?

Lunde. Good point about DBS.

£95k a month IS ludicrous. But it's only 19 new victims full price sales. Entirely possible.

I think that they are more like Timeshare sales staff than MLM. The following of the "script" from the sales/business site that talks of the "indoctrination" of potential buyers and "closing" 20% of sales pitches. Timeshare properties may be very nice but they use similar high pressure sales techniques, coupled with manipulation and guilt tripping, making it a high cost option that limits your options for going elsewhere as you have spent so much and with buyers being encouraged to take on debt and close the sale quickly (units are going quickly - buy now).

It is not a very ethical way to do business selling property but I find it astonishing that it is allowed for treatment programmes for vulnerable children. The passive aggressive, guilt inducing statements to get a "sale" from desperate and vulnerable parents with the implication that you are a 'bad parent' if unable to stump up £5,500.

Yeah that make sense lunde. I also don’t get the webinar thing. Is the countdown clock ‘reserve my seat’ a sales tactic? If it’s just a repeated webinar, why not have it available at any time?

There's probably a big 'Target Available Market' of anxious parents of anxious teen right now, what with CAMHS being overwhelmed etc. They don't need many to get signed up to take in large amounts of money.

I think there are a lot of parallels with MLMs in terms of cross posting comments by people involved, lots of talking it up etc. etc.

Ultimately, any business with such little transparency on what they provide, with cheerleaders who also can't describe what is provided gets a big steer clear from me. This applies 10x over to businesses with those characteristics involving themselves in the lives of vulnerable families.

Ok, I think I get it now. So high ticket coaching has a course, where they teach you how to design and market a coaching product, so that you can supposedly earn lots of money. So all those people, are saying thanks to high ticket coaching for teaching them how to sell their product. God knows if any of the figures quoted are true though. Or sustainable. But there’s no mention anywhere of the quality of the products that people are selling. Which, as said lots, when it comes to vulnerable families, is very concerning.

@SwanShaped

Yeah that make sense lunde. I also don’t get the webinar thing. Is the countdown clock ‘reserve my seat’ a sales tactic? If it’s just a repeated webinar, why not have it available at any time?

Absolutely a sales tactic, I would say to immediately get the consumer a bit on the back foot and primed to take action quickly. Blink and you’ll miss it. Similar to “only 1 space left, you better book now”. None of the techniques they paid thousands to “learn” are groundbreaking or little known, but it’s effective.

The “type” of customer who ends up booking a phone call has, by that point, identified themselves as being receptive to old fashioned sales tactics as well as being interested in their miracle cure. That’s where Samantha Robins steps in and pulls out all the stops to get her hands on a very significant amount of your cash. She doesn’t take no for an answer so I would bet the closure rate is quite high once she has you on the phone.

Okay... so this is interesting...

I did not know that a user could request Admin to delete my private messages to them (yes - delete!)...

You may recall a user (JungleMum40) who claimed I’d PMd her to ask her to ‘be quiet’. I did nothing of the sort - in fact she threatened to set her husband on me...!!

Anyways - I’m just re-reading some of the (many!) helpful messages I was PMd and noticed that in my Inbox the messages Jungle sent me say ‘message withdrawn at users request’. Okay I see why she can do that but Admin have also deleted my messages to her...?!! What..? Is it just me that finds that unacceptable??

Blooming good thing I took screen shots of EVERYTHING for my files... nevertheless be aware as I had no idea Mumsnet could/would do something like this.

Seems kind of suspect to me too - why would Jungle do that do you think??

I did not know that could happen with messages. You must have wound her up somehow.... I have my suspicions that Jungle is Sam anyway. There’s a few mistakes she makes in her writing that both jungle and Sam make.

@SwanShaped

Yeah that make sense lunde. I also don’t get the webinar thing. Is the countdown clock ‘reserve my seat’ a sales tactic? If it’s just a repeated webinar, why not have it available at any time?

Exactly - they are all high pressure sales techniques

In the days of Timeshare in the Med they used to to get people to in-person seminars that was a video presentation of the units by promising them all sorts sorts - I knew someone fooled into a "free champagne coastal drive" which turned out to to a drive to another hotel some miles away and some unidentified bubbly (probably cheap Cava) followed by a 1½ hour video presentation and long hard sell by the reps the ride back was not available until around 3 hours later.

These tactics rely on people self-selecting and showing themselves to be vulnerable to hard sell tactics.

They often use scarcity or fake discounts to force your decision so that you don't think about it.

• book now only a couple of spaces left and cannot guarantee a place if you book later (+ implying that if you really want to help your child you would book ... so guilt)
• offering a spurious discount e.g. they are having a sale so you get a better price

I remember on Watchdog's "Rogue Traders" that a maker of reclining chairs marketed at disabled and elderly people used the same tactics to sell a double the value of the product

• they would not tell you much about the product - you "needed" and in home demonstration to understand it
• the hard sell once they got in your house lasted 3 hours
• use of scarcity (order books getting full)
• happened to be having a sale - order now (no chance to shop around)
• OK chair but not worth what you paid

@GoodButNaughty

Just updating you on some of MTF (my therapist friend's) actions since I last posted on ACTIONS TAKEN (that was some time ago now, sorry).

The ASA has re-opened its case against YCFF (TomWill Holdings Ltd is their trading name); they closed it as the FaceBook Ads ceased however MTF directed them to the Kids Anxiety Disorders page and Ads and they immediately reopened it.

MTF has a therapist freind (confused yet..?!) who provides sessions for Anxiety UK. MTF provided some links to him and he has sent all of this off to Anxiety UK to review. I don't know for sure, but I can only speculate that they may have an opinion on how this approach is being marketed.

That's my update for now .

I'm really pleased the case has been re-opened. I hate the thought of the company shape shifting so they can target other vulnerable families.

Really interesting to learn more about how these high ticket coaching schemes operate.

YCFF Insta still seems to be saying success guaranteed www.instagram.com/your_child_freedom_formula_/ (if I'm doing it right, I don't do Instagram)

Yeah, it does teen. I kind of can’t believe she’s still going at it.

I have had a terrible experience with this company, they are not medically trained and al their sales and mentor staff are ex-customers, its LIKE A pyramid or Ponzi scheme, I have emails offering my daughter and I jobs, and a copy of their internal organisation chart (staff structure, sales and mentors) showing all the names of all the people who review them positively on their website and trust pilot.
The therapeutic content is just a bit of science about adrenalin and that is it... that’s all they’ve got.
I got some of my money back through my credit card and now THEY ARE TAKING ME TO COURT because they want their money back, and do not like my reviews, they have since overloaded the internet with their reviews from their mentors and sales team, to silence me.
I have threatening emails from Sam Robins and the above evidence about how they work. I might need to team up with anyone else in a similar situation with them in court
IF YOU HAVE HAD A BAD EXPERIENCE PLEASE GET IN TOUCH, I am alone trying to prove they are bad news. If you've been through their emotional blackmail sales experience or their programme pls let me know THANK YOU x

Having been a paid customer, I am happy to share whatever I can, and I am not tied into the fear of loosing my job in sales or as a mentor as I did not sign up to these offers. I am free to speak and am horrified with my experice. I am the vulnrable, feeling like a fool for beleiving them. I was so desperate to help my daugher after 7 years of life halting and altering anxiety. I am fighting a battle and feel so alone

@Twoandtwois6 - I know that we have PMd and I am clear that you posted on the original thread very early on. I think it is important that you let others know where you are at with this process with YCFF so that they can offer their support. Unfortunately my therapist freind (understandably) prefers not to be identified or get any further involved aside from the (amazing amount of) stuff she has already done.

Also, my lovely freind who used YCFF is still very reluctant to take things any further with them.

I will be happy to support you in any other way that I can - if I can.

Please do take very good care of yourself as this is very impactful on mental health (as I know from my friend and even my experience, including being intimidated by PM by who I now suspect was one of the Robins).

I think it is time to take this to somewhere like Watchdog or Panorama...