Is it reasonable to forward face at 4?

[RedCarAndBlueCar]

I have 4 year old DTs. They are just about growing out of their current isofix rear facing car seats as they're pretty average height and weight (they're about 103cm at the moment and just under 16kg).

The trouble is having two I need to buy two car seats at once. It seems that if I get two more rear facing ones, I'm looking at £1k. Whereas forward facing, even the highest rated seem to be less than £400.

Obviously you can't put a price on your child surviving a car crash etc, but it is a huge amount of money.

Is rear facing at this age really that much safer? If I do shell out for the rear facing ones will they decide they hate rear facing in a year or so?

Most things I've read seem to say rear face for as long as possible but this also seems to mostly mean until 4. Is rear facing beyond this worth it?

What have others decided to do?

Legally until they are 135cm or 12 years old, but most kids are nowhere near ready to come out of a booster at 135cm - many European countries set 150cm as the legal height to come out of a booster.

I'm so sorry for your friend's loss

Thank you. Both of his parents remained generally unharmed (didn’t require any hospital treatment) whilst their son had to be airlifted to the nearest hospital who could manage severe paediatric traumas. He was in intensive care for a week and had two surgeries on his brain, but ultimately the decision was made to turn his ventilator off because there was no hope of recovery.

They have since gone on to have another child who is just over 2 years old now and they will rear-face her for as long as they possibly can.

I wouldn't recommend this one personally as it's quite cheaply made and the instructions aren't great, so there's a high chance of misuse despite it being isofix. With it being cheaply produced there is no margin for error.

If on a tight budget and want to rear face you can look at:

Axkid Move 9-25kg (approx 1-7 years) £209 until end of September.
Graco Turn2Me, 0-18kg (0-4 years approx), £150 - or the i-size is £10 more.
Graco Extend LX r129, belt fitted, newest safety reg, up to 105cm/18kg (0-4 years approx), £100.

The ickle bubba is also a combination seat with booster so it's not really a rear facing seat up to age 12, it's just a standard 18kg limit seat so up to approx 3-4 years.

@HeadAgainstWall0923 so sorry for you friends loss.

My older daughter was rear-facing till 8 years old. She complained about switching to a high-backed booster! As posters above have found you can get good ERF seats for £200. It isn't too hard to fit them and they feel very secure in the car.

However I think 4 is fine to forward face if that is what you decide. In a harnessed seat or if they are ready a HBB.

My feelings on forward facing are:

• 9 months is now just irresponsible even if you have a pre R129 seat as we know better
• 15 months is bare legal minimum but not very safe
• 2 years is the earliest I would consider in any circumstances
• 4 is absolutely fine
• 7+ is for the super risk-averse with small complient children like me!

I think 4 is fine to move to a decent high back booster.

My Ds is still 3, in rear facing seat. That’s to 105cm-18kg. He will also reach height before weight limit as he’s tall but slim.
I’m planning to move to a high back booster.

I think 15month min is way too young. But I think from 3.5-4 years then it’s very reasonable to move to a booster.

Im looking at the maxi cosi kore pro I think.

At Ds nursery, I haven’t seen anyone rear face at all beyond baby seat. So although we have, there’s 60+ children there I have seen in and out cars the last year and only baby siblings in first seat seem to rear face. So as a % it’s low

Thanks for all your help on this thread. I'd nearly decided on the Move but having joined a Facebook car seat group I've seen lots of posts saying their kids grew out of it at five. If it lasts until 6 or 7 it seems worthwhile (ie if I get a couple of years out if them) but not if it's less than a year. I guess my twins are not high centile and weight wise they'll get a long time out of it, but I've seen that some children grow out of it height wise more quickly than the minikid, which has confused me as I didn't think it had a height limit.

It seems that the 36kg ones are all really expensive? Maybe that's what I was seeing before when I was looking and only finding pricey ones?

They are both currently just turned 4 and 103cm, 16kg 2 or 3 weeks ago (will reweigh!). I think my girl twin is on the 50th centile or just above and boy twin is just below.

My DGS was in a rear-facing Joie 360 Spin until he was 18 kg and about 4 years 8 months. Then moved into a forward facing Joie Trillo, which he likes a lot.

It seems that the 36kg ones are all really expensive? Maybe that's what I was seeing before when I was looking and only finding pricey ones?

I think the Minikid 3 or 4 goes up to 36kg.

My back of envelope calculations when I was working out car seats for my DC was that it didn't work out more expensive long term going straight for an extended rear facing seat. We went from a 0+ infant carrier seat into rear facing to 6/7 seats.
Compared to friends it means we missed out having to do some changes in toddler hood/early preschool, so longer term it saved us money even if the initial outlay was higher.

Lots of massively pro rear-facing people on here, DC were forward facing before 4 - for me the fact that we mainly drive around our city in 20 or 30 mph zones was a factor. We do go on motorways but not very often so our risk was lower anyway. We also only go in the car 2-3 times a week whereas some people use it for everyday school run etc.

I think you also need to factor in child boredom - rear facing is a lot more boring and bored children tend to shout, fight, get cross etc even with toys and books. Which in turn stresses the driver and increases risk!

Why is rear facing more boring?

If the Max Way Plus was still on sale, I'd suggest that, because it's a great seat, good value, lasts ages (my tall 6yo was in it until recently). But tbh I think you should just get HBBs.

What tosh! My child was rear facing until 6.5 and found it easier to read, colour etc rear facing as the stuff didn't keep sliding off her lap like it does now she's in a HBB. They can still see out of the window too so not sure why on earth you'd think they'd be more bored 🙄

Don't worry about what age other people's children grow out of a seat, look at your own children and their centiles.

According to Margaret at Rear Facing toddlers:

At 41cm from the bottom the Minikid's highest harness slots are 4cm higher than the Move's 37cm, but the Minikid has a bigger headrest which comes down over the shoulders more, so they are both outgrown around the same time, when the torso measures around 43cm bum to shoulder.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1201859009957946&type=3

She also has photos of her youngest son in the Minikid here when he was just outgrowing it - she says he was 126cm tall and 23kg, 6 years 7 months, but also high centile. So even for higher centile children I think outgrowing at 5 is quite unusual - possibly what they meant is that they did not want to RF any more, or they found the seat annoying, or possibly they even assumed it was outgrown when it was not.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1296836993793480&type=3

I can only concur with others and say it's absolutely your choice and I think both a HBB or Axkid Move would be totally reasonable, safe choices. If you could make the choice in a vacuum and nobody else would have an opinion on it, think about that and make that choice - I think opinions can be SO strong in this area, and it really doesn't help.

Personally I'm a bit unusual among the car seat crowd because I'm not a super-mega-fan of rear facing. I absolutely think it's valid and the safety benefits are real. I would fight to have RF access and info made more accessible because I think it's important for people to make an informed choice. I think the majority of the reasons that people cite against it are actually based more in their familiarity with FF than any real objection to RF - for example there's really nothing that you can do FF that you can't do RF, so the boredom argument doesn't make sense, there are comfortable RF seats so the comfort/legs argument doesn't make sense, I think people in general have more tolerance for "faff" in their seats when it's something familiar plus are biased against when it's something new, which is why they seem to think RF seats are hard to install but FF seats (e.g. with top tether) are easy. Likewise, many kids protest against being strapped in, but because we know they need to be strapped in, we tend to go "oh well, suck it up" (and they do largely get over it once you start moving) but if they protest against RF, well it's because they don't like RF. (I've seen this with my husband in particular!) BUT I don't think everyone should be forced to RF, I don't think it's right for everyone, I think a lot of people don't actually like RF, I think the car sickness, driver distraction argument is valid and I don't think we should be minimising ALL arguments against ERF because sometimes it is expensive, it is a faff, it is less preferable (if safety were taken out of the equation).

I think there's a space for "good enough" and not always "as safe as possible" and raising the minimum bar, rather than quibbling over tiny differences in the safety of children who are already, statistically, extremely low risk. Other people will have their risk tolerance in a different place and I think that's OK because I think there is space for different approaches in the advice/info sphere. But I do think people should have all the info to make the decision that's right and I will challenge assumptions that I think are based on incorrect info.

👏

@BertieBotts fantastic post, thank you. For the knowledge and further info about the seats, but also particularly this bit

If you could make the choice in a vacuum and nobody else would have an opinion on it, think about that and make that choice

That's such great advice and actually goes for so many parenting decisions!

I'm still trying to make up my mind and work out what I do actually think as I keep being swayed by everything I read. Will think on it for a couple of days and chat through again with DH.

I have multiple children in car seats (ages 7, 3 and 1) and am expecting another baby in January. Currently the 1 and 3 year old are in rear facing car seats and the 7 year old on a high backed booster seat. Due to fitting in the extra car seat I feel there are two options swap the high back booster seat for a booster cushion with no back and I can then fit the other 3 cars seats in still rear facing or keep the high back booster seat and swap the rear facing seat for my 3 year old to a forward facing seat. Which would you do? Is the difference in safety between a high back booster and a booster cushion less or greater than the difference between a rear of forward facing car seat? Thank you

DD grew out of her ERF seat when she was about 4.5 (was a Cybex Sirona). We moved her FF at that point. The only problem as such was that she stopped sleeping in her car seat as the FF HBB doesn't recline and it wasn't comfortable for her. She's now 9 (almost 10), about 150cm and very much at the limit of that seat so we'll probably need to move her to no car seat (which is a pretty scary thought, but she's very tall so can't find any seats that will fit her, and standard booster seats are apparently not very safe).

IMO 4 is fine to go FF.

Fwiw I have a 96th centile 5 year old and a 70th centile 6 year old still happy in Axkid Move. They get bored on journeys longer than 2 hours, but equally they get bored on train and bus journeys over two hours, so I would relate this to the length rather than the seat.

All 3 of ours forward face two 2s and a 3 year old

If your in the UK the government site clearly says from 15 months forward facing which is about the time our 3 did

@Ladyj84 - it says minimum age is 15 months. That’s not the maximum age or optimal, just the bare minimum legally allowed.

I do find it really interesting that there is so much internet movement on "rear facing as long as possible," and very little on "driving less," "deliberately staying away from the more dangerous routes," "switching out car trips for public transit wherever possible," and "refraining from driving when sleep deprived," which are also influence risk levels a lot. I've come across some people who come across as very judgey on rear facing as long as possible but who don't seem to be making even a token effort on any of the other areas.

You can look in your red book for a rough guess of how long they would get in a Axkid Move as you can look at height and weight in the book. (it could changed but it's the best thing for guessing!)

I have the Axkid ONE (not budget friendly) and going by the red book we should get to 8 year's old in it and outgrow it by height not weight! Or the seat will expire for it's 8 years in car uses first.