Haiti - F*****g Nestle is at it already.

[foxytocin]

here now what can I do about it?

This discussion is so bizarre.......so sad.
Do we need to be so pedantic?
The US army/UN can't even secure water distribution and we are discussing how morally wrong nestle is by sending formula to Haiti?
Let's just hope food ANY food reaches the population at this stage.

"and also that dont forget that stress can affect breast milk flow and amount."

I think that there has been quite a lot of evidence to show that this is not actually the case. I'm loathe to do the Gabrielle Palmer thing again but she specifically talks about this fallacy in TPOB

Have you even read the discussion slim22 or just made a kneejerk reaction ?

Both actually

...so you understand that giving formula to the wrong children will INCREASE deaths then slim22?

Because it sounds like you you didn't grasp that point.

Here we go again....

slim - it's precisely because water supplies cannot be secured in Haiti that sending formula to the disaster area is likely to kill babies, and overload an already overloaded health and hospital service. If you have read the thread you will have understood this, surely?

LittleMrsHappy - I was not saying people had called wet nursing/relacation 'weird'. I was strongly suggesting people were judging these options from a Western-centric view, which certainly does think these options would be weird and/or impossible.

I said they probably would not work if a tidal wave hit London. In desperate situations, people find it harder, not easier, to do things that feel alien to them (there was very little relactation or wet nursing after Katrina, for instance).

But wet nursing and relactation are not 'alien' in predominantly breastfeeding cultures - it's the formula feeding that's hard for them to do safely. Wet nursing and relactation may well be normal in Haiti and it should be supported, especially as the alternative of formula is so dangerous.

And stress is not really an issue, as Fibilou points out.

slim22 - if they cannot secure water distribution then how the hell will infant formula be any use to anyone? It needs water, lots of water, to make up feeds and to clean feeding equipment.

Agree tiktoc, Not entirely sure about stress issue, but I know it can reduce milk flow, as happened to me with ds1 when my father passed away.

Cote - did you read the thread?

Your questions are easily answered.

"Breastfeeding mums wouldn't switch to formula just because they have a free can of powder milk, I imagine."

That's not the point. In fact, in a disaster situation, breastfeeding mothers do switch - they are separated from their babies, or they feel they cannot breastfeed because they are distressed and injured, or brand new mothers don't try to breastfeed...this has been seen many times in disaster areas which is why the protocols for safe infant feeding have been developed and which prevent uncontrolled formula distribution.

You say:"What about babies who were on formula before the quake?"

There were very few of them - Haiti is a predominantly bf culture and most babies feed for a long time.

" Do you think their mothers, even if they have mums now, can get more at the local store? hmm"

'Hmmmm' yourself....that's where relactation can come in.

"What about older babies who were already weaned? What about orphaned ones?"

They can be wet nursed, or others can relactate for them....and if this isn;t possible, then of course they should have formula.

As has been explained several times.

Acute stress/shock/fear can impact on let down, very temporarily, in a few women.

This is not the same as the milk disappearing, so mothers under stress in Haiti, if they experience a temporary cessation in let down, can be supported to continue to bf.

This is not the same as stress meaning the women stop being able to bf.

ladies, please, am really not contradicting any of the forceful arguments set forth in this discussion.

But it is FUTILE being so sanctimonious from where we stand.

My point is just: what is a thread - and more precisely a title- like this achieving other than creating another AIBU style rant on the evils of formula feed enablers?

It's all been said before. Give it a rest.

As Tiktok said much earlier in the thread, most agencies in situ know the protocols to follow anyway. Leave it to them to decide if they want the formula or not. Better have it handy than not I say.

Erm, this thread has, by the admission of several posters, educated them about the real dangers associated with undermining BF in disaster situations such as this.

It is vital that people understand the issues around subjects like this!

slim22 you say "most agencies in situ know the protocols to follow anyway"

Correct.

And Nestle have a track record of bypassing these protocols, and causing unecessary deaths as a result.

Can you see that it is THIS which we are concerned about?

We want the protocols followed! To save lives. And we are worried that Nestle will not be subject to these controls.

tiktac, im sorry as you cannot read a tone from a screen, but I didn't say woman should stop being able to BF, I was saying that its a factor that needs to be considered.

Im sure your reading my posts differently from what they are, or maybe not, hard to tell.

I know you did not say this, LittleMrsHappy.

I was just completing my lesson on the way stress does and does not affect bf

But hospitals are overwhelmed with protruding bones and limbs to be amputated because of gangrene and you think they will have time to implement a campaign on relactation?

Of course we want the protocols followed but come on open your eyes and be realistic about the situation on the ground.
Thousands of orphaned very little children are roaming the streets at the mercy of predators and disease.

Relactation and making sure Nestle doesn't bypass the protocols is not on any agency's list of priorities unfortunately.

It's great having this discussion, but my point remains, it's al very academic unfortunately.

Just a thought, but is there any evidence that just because a major manufacturer 'donates' food/water, that it actually is accepted by the relief agencies?

Seems to me that there could be an influx of offers to provide aid, but for practicality reasons, not accepted.

This is from Nestles own web site, so not exactly independent.

I would imagine many offers are turned down.

Let us hope that Guantanamo, helps ease the pressure from Haiti and more aid and Haiti citizens can get other help from Haiti.

from Guantanamo

Interesting statistics from Unicef on breastfeeding rates in Haiti here.

It seems very few infants are formula-fed (water/other liquids and complementary foods are more commonly used) and those who are receiving some formula tend, it seems, to be getting some breastmilk too.

Just to back Tiktok's point on Haiti's feeding culture being rather different to our own

"Relactation and making sure Nestle doesn't bypass the protocols is not on any agency's list of priorities unfortunately."

How sure are you of this slim22? I think you are utterly wrong.

Do you REALLY support an action which looks good on the surface, but in reality increases deaths?

It's like supporting the indiscriminate distribution of antibiotics, which we accept results in diseases mutating to become AB resistant, and ultimately causes unecessary deaths.

Targetted help = mimimised deaths
Untargetted 'help' = increased deaths

Can't you support targetted formula distribution and resist indiscriminate distribution?

I actually think that the people who support Nestle's indiscriminate formula donations are at best ignorant, and at worst selfish in the extreme. Let the poor little buggers die then as a result of drinking unsafe formula, at least we can pretend we were trying to help and pat ourselves on the back.

Oh fgs

Nestle is not airdropping formula on Haiti. It will have offered some to some agencies which are at liberty to accept the offer or not, as they see fit. Where is the evidence of indiscriminate distribution? Everyone admits some formula is needed when bf is not an option and some has been provided.

Watergreen, yes, UNICEF have been working on improving breastfeeding rates in Haiti for quite a long while. Among the reasons for less than half the population breastfeeding before was some of their voodoo beliefs (spoiled milk syndrome).
So even if severely dehydrated women can wet nurse, there are belief systems to be sympathetic to.