Haiti - F*****g Nestle is at it already.

[foxytocin]

here now what can I do about it?

slim - here's a hint. Stop posting about things you clearly know nothing about. You sound so confident that no agency will be concerned with the issue of protecting the safety of infants by ensuring the safe distribution of formula - I can assure you that you are wrong.

Internationally-agree protocols on infant feeding mean there are evidence-based ways of protecting infant health by sustaining bf, in a disaster zone.

Rest assured, this does not involve any expectation that orthopaedic surgeons should stop re-setting limbs for this, or even that 'programmes of relactation' are begun. It doesn't work like that.

The infants who need formula should get the formula. The protocols - which the aid agencies and NGOs do take seriously - will accommodate this, and prevent unfettered distribution of formula because this leads to sick and dying babies.

It's not at all academic. Talk to anyone who has worked with maternal and infant health in a disaster/war/earthquake/refugee zone and they will tell you clearly - they use the protocols, and they have to remain alert to inappropriate infant formula donations, not always from manufacturers but from well-meaning but misguided 'independents' who send trucks, boats and packages from church groups and so on....this is a live issue, faced daily by people on the ground.

You are really not putting this into context are you? It's about priorities right now not objections of conscience.

Next week, next month? OK maybe - hopefully- we can have this discussion.

I guess the breast feeding mothers will continue to do so. And those who want to wet nurse will.Surely this will go to the orphans, under supervision of the aid agencies?
I doubt the formula/breast feeding issue is not top on their list of priorities right now I imagine anything will do

MrsS "Where is the evidence of indiscriminate distribution?"

Nestle have History of exactly this. Why do you think we're concerned?

slim - you do know, don't you, how quickly an infant can die of diarrhoea/dehydration?

The issue of appropriate nutrition is about 'priorities right now'.

I don't know why you think 'objections of conscience' are somehow a luxury - I would object to unfettered distribution of formula because it leads to sick and dying infants.

mrsruffalo - have you read the thread? No one thinks this is a formula/bf issue....it's about nutrition that has serious risks, and nutrition that's safe.

Aid agencies have to be alert to prevent inappropriate donations of formula, and Nestle is not the only serial offender in this. There are many documented instances of it, which is why the protocols were written and agreed when they were.

Nestle is distributing its aid through World Vision, who appear pretty attuned to the protocols surrounding supporting lactation in disaster situations, from a quick look at the World Vision website.

They can't let doctors and nurses onto the street incase they get macheted to death so I'm pretty sure re-lactation experts are going to be thin on the ground.

They're now air dropping food something else aid agencies don't generally like doing in disasters (incase of riots).

It's chaos, aid agencies and the US gov are having major problems getting anything in. Planes are returning unable to deliver.

This is an exceptional disaster. I don't think aid agencies or the haitian people would give a stuff about any of this at the moment.

The aid agencies are the experts not us, they'll have handled this before. There is point wrangling for hours over water purification tablets, ethics and the "correct" way of doing things.

I find this thread distasteful and sickening actually. Now is not the time to be debating this.It's so patronising tucked up in our nice safe houses debating what is best for a group of people when they just want to at best live through the next hour. Wouldn't it be best to have all this academic pondering and lecturing later?

That's interesting spectacular. Thanks!

MrsS look uo nestle and Africa, their is well known picture that is famous worldwide about African Twins, Nestle convinced the mother that she did not have enough BM to feed both her children, so the boy was BF and the girl was bottle fed, the difference between the to babies were stomach churning, the girl was completely malnourished and severely ill and the boy was blossoming, sadly the little girl died and no other people are too blame except for nestle!

Goggle is your friend, you will understand more.

Yes, littlecarrot, Nestle have a history of this and are now watched like hawks. It is totally against their interests to continue this - they've had so much flak (rightly) in the past for it

This argument is going into the ground now. Everyone agrees some formula is necessary. Everyone agrees bf is preferable if possible. Nestle cannot force formula on an agency, it will accept it if there is a need. Agencies liaise with big businesses over this (and yes, it is PR for the agencies because we don't live in a perfect world).

What individuals shouldn't do is donate an old case of formula sitting in the basement, or for that matter bundles of teddy bears, old medicines etc, but make cash donations instead,

Tiktok you are being so defensive and condescending when I'm actually concurring with the hard facts you have given since my first post. That is not my point.

In your attempt to educate us you are pathetically blind to what Mila has just reiterated.
Can you just save the lecture for later?

We X posted littlemrshappy, I am well aware of what Nestle did in Africa. As I said that is incredibly well documented and therefore Nestle aren't doing it any more.

Sorry, TiktOK, no, I haven't read the whole thread I am dipping quickly in and out of MN when the opportunity presents itself. I was just responding to the tone of the OP.

Carry on, you always give great advice in this area so I'll leave it to you

Although would like to add what is the debate here then?
If protocol is being acknowleged and adhered to?

slim - I don't care what you think of my 'defensiveness' and condescension. Not one jot.

Mila: Protocols do not require that 'relactation experts' are at hand. Relactation is only one small part of the way infants are prevented from dying from unsafe feeding. As you say, the aid agencies are the experts. They follow protocols to safeguard infant health so babies do not get sick or die from inappropriate nutrition.

You used the word academic, too...as did slim. I don't understand it - it sounds as if you think we are theorising or something. Not at all.

spectacular - it's good if WV are taking donations and working out the best way of transporting them and sharing them.

That's what I was thinking MrsR. If formula is being sent but there are protocols which are agreed and followed, what is the issue being debated?

So seriously, now we know the donation was to a reputable aid organisation which adheres to the protocols, what is the problem?

TikTok, I was just going to say taht umbrella agencies like UNICEF must always remain on the alert for indiscriminate distribution of formula.

A lot of big companies and businesses make donations to small voluntary organisations like church groups, like people who will load up boat, lorry, container, etc and take it to a disaster zone.

So without monitoring, a church group may bring in donated formula to a village or town where they may have already had a link with in the past through, for example, an evangelical mission or a dental or vision hospital.

Sometimes we cannot see the dangers we can bring into a community with the best intentions in the world.

Some missionary groups also use the donated goods as a way of getting converts. IE If you don't come to our church, you can't get any of our good will. (They may only distribute a food item at the end of a 2 or 4 hour bible beating sermon) but that is another story.

Of course, this is the longer not immediate view of what can happen in disaster zones. but by discussing it on here hopefully we get to donate more wisely so our money effort and time is not wasted.

It happened in the Pakistan Earthquake 2/3 yrs ago. A lot of inappropriate things get taken sometimes half way around the globe by well meaning people with great effort and dedication, but unfortunately wasting their time and money and the time and money of others.

Then alot of the stuff never reach the people in areas which are genuinely affected because they have no knowledge of the area or country and stick to the main roads, leaving for all intents and purposes, useless junk to be scattered by the 4 winds.

"Relactation ....is not on any agency's list of priorities unfortunately. "
Yes it damn well is

Thank you foxy and tiktok, i don't know how you do it

Slim22, based on your last post I doubt your capability to debate this at any point, whether now or in a month.
Do you understand maths? Untargetted formula donation can = more deaths than no formula donation at all.

If babies are going to die as a result of this disaster, I'd rather 100 deaths than 1000. I'll support the action which minimises death.

You've made it clear that you support an action which causes more deaths. Because it's about "priorities right now". I don't feel that way.

MrsS, I'm glad you feel that Nestle will be watched like a hawk and won't contravene protocols. That is all I wish for. Time will tell if your optimism is well founded.

sorry huuuuge x post

Since you already know what Nestle has done in Africa. Then google Nestle Brazil. Just a stone's throw away from Haiti.

Or google Even google Nestle Dominican Republic, a land border away from haiti. You will find that they have not behaved reputably there either.

I don't know enough about World Vision to comment about Nestle's donation to them. I do know that world vision is an evangelical christian NGO and from experience with evangelical missionaries in the past, excuse me if I happen to go first and ask questions later.

What is this thread about if not Nestle being watched like hawks ?

Do people think this is about making people bf so their children don't get asthma later or something like that?

It's not. It's about protecting babies from the possibly fatal diarrhoea they are likely to get immediately from having formula from unclean bottles or with unclean water. It's an urgent, short-term, issue, not something to postpone considering till the immediate needs are out of the way.

In this situation, formula is the thing that could perhaps be safe enough one day, but isn't now, so it's the last resort. (Safe enough for anyone with money for clean water that is - where they're in a minority it won't be safe even then of course.)

I do think most people get this now on this thread, but it seems some who are just reading the OP and having a gut reaction still don't.