'Babies don't need night feeds at 6 months': do we believe this, MN jury?!

[ParanoidAtAllTimes]

I'm EBFing ds (5 months) and planning to do BLW at 26 weeks. He wakes multiple times in the night for feeds so I'm under no illusion that he'll magically sleep through at 6 months. Don't think I have supply problems- good weight gain and content after feeds. So should I try to get him to cut down his night feeds somehow when he's 6 months or will I be denying him vital nutrition?

Oh and I don't think he's having a growth spurt- unless they can last for 7 weeks!

tiktok I've been wondering about your remark that "It is normal, however, if not desirable by their parents, for babies to wake several times in the night...this is not disturbed sleep, as they settle quickly again with a feed."

When you say quickly, how quickly do you regard as normal? I'm just wondering as 9mo DS generally takes at least 30mins to feed at night, and it's common for him to suck for up to an hour, so if he has two feeds in a night, he's generally sucking for well over an hour in total, on top of up to an hour for his bedtime feed.

I don't particularly mind this from my point of view, as it is so much better now he is not also waking every hour or two throughout the night. However, I wouldn't regard it as quick. Should I be concerned that it is interfering with DS's sleep rather than aiding it? It's so hard to find any advice on BFing beyond the first few weeks...

mistletoe- I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I think that at around 13 weeks ds had a big growth spurt which got him into the habit of waking up and he needs mummy's breast to go back to sleep.

I've made the proverbial rod for my own back!

IsItMeOrSant, This is where co-sleeping comes into it's own. My DS might wake me if he wants to nurse at night, I latch him on and go back to sleep. Zzzzzzz.

That said he is 15 months and still nursing at night but as it is so much easier to nurse him at night, I haven't tried to night wean him yet.

babies- after months of saying I'd never co-sleep (too worried about crushing/smothering ds) I caved in 2 nights ago and despite him still waking 6 or so times I'm much better rested. I just feel that this is a short term solution for me though, rather than a long term one to help him sleep longer.

Babieseverywhere - thanks for that. I have not been able to persuade DS to co-sleep for some time now, he just thinks it is playtime! These babies definitely seem to know their own minds, and DS seems to like sleeping in his own cot best.

Fortunately my concern was for the impact on his sleep rather than on mine. I was hoping tiktok might be able to put my mind at rest.

Itisme - no idea how much sleep a baby actually needs at night...but to me, two half hour 'incidents' of waking up and feeding and then going back to sleep again at 9 mths don't sound 'abnormal' .

We stopped DS's night feeds at 6 months and I will with this baby, too. They don't need it by that point, they're just after comfort and forget that they can go to sleep on their own. They soon get into it though. It's not child abuse to stop nightfeeds.

without having read the thread:

BS! i cut out feeds between 12 and 5am with dd and it was the stupidist thing i've ever done. she didn't sleep any better, worse if possible and i no longer had the easy solution of popping her on for a feed and going back to sleep myself.

ds1 gradually stopped night feeds of his own accord between 12 and 18 months but right up until he weaned at 30 months i ed at night if he asked (rare occurance)

ds2 still feeds at night at 10 months but sometimes goes the night without a feed so i imagine he'll cut down at the same rate as ds1.

as far as i'm concerned emotional need ranks as high as nutritional need and mine all clearly needed night feeds until much older than 6 months

Thanks tiktok - I am suitably reassured .

No, my DS is 1 year and 1 month and still wakes up for 2 bottles.

I totally agree that babies at 6 months don't need a night feed

My ds at this age, however, did not agree

Can't remember how old he was when we he stopped the night feed but it was older than 6 months! Prob more like 11/ 12 months I think

He ate really well in the day, so possibly this was habit/comfort more than nutrition, however he was REALLY wedded to it, so whatever the motivation for it didn't really matter, the end result was the same - he was having it!

Interesting reading this thread, my twins will be 6 months on christmas day, and all I want for christmas is one nights sleep!

Grendle - If there are any "research references" on the subject, maybe you would like to cite some. Otherwise, let's all accept that nobody experiments on babies, and hence it is normal that nobody has any "research references" re when babies are physically capable of going through the night without a feed.

Cote but it does sometimes feel as if the babies might be experimenting on us, no?

Cote -I agree, experimenting on babies to see how long they can go without food for is definitely unethical .

It does make me wonder on what basis the book feels able to confidantly assert that "From a strictly metabolic standpoint, babies can usually go through the night without a feeding once they've reached 11 pounds" though? If this is just guesswork then it really should say so.

There are a range of studies looking at normal infant sleep. Some of them are listed here.

TikTok, I usually agree with you, but this once I disagree. Or at least I'd like to discuss what you say more. What 'observational studies from all cultures' show babies waking several times per night in order to feed?
At what age? (Because there are different developmental needs at newborn stage, at 3 months, at 9 months, at a year, beyond a year etc). We all know that of course.
Also: how often do these babies 'in all cultures' wake? I really really doubt that in cultures with big families mothers wake again & again & again in the night to feed 1 year olds.

Surely we can all agree that there is such a thing as habit in babies (again, I STRESS, after a certain age). I never ever understand in these threads what's the problem for people to accept that babies, like all of us, develop various habits. It's up to the parents to decide (and each choice is highly personal & depends on all sorts of circumstances) how they deal with these habits. There's nothing 'natural' about a toddler, say at 14 months old, waking 2-3-4 times a night crying out for his/her bottle. Or maybe, yes, it's natural, given that habits are natural. That doesn't mean all habits are helpful.

Last point: not all methods of sleep training are 'cry it out'. Again, I despair when people don't see this & assume babies are left to 'cry desperately in the night'. It is not cruel to make a rational decision to do something about a habit which has become problematic for the family as a whole. In some cases it's the only rational choice, otherwise the parents can't cope e.g. with work, with their daily chores etc. Not all ways to do this involves loads of crying!!!

Maria, you can see academic references on Dr James McKenna's website, plus copies of research:
www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab

Of course mothers in cultures with big families don't wake again and again in the night to feed 1 year olds. They don't wake (fully) anything like as often as the baby feeds. Dr Helen Ball's sleep lab shows that mothers feed without realising it and without remembering how many times they did it the next day.

I think there are ways parents can change or amend their babies' normal needs if they want to - I think it is unkind to do this harshly or too early. That's all.

TikTok: I completely agree about not doing sleep training harshly / too early. I also personally think sleep training is the very last option & working on a good sleep routine gradually is much more helpful & means sleep training might be avoided altogether. E.g. having a bedtime with bath/bottle-boob/bed, creating a calm atmosphere, having regular naps, all sorts of things like that (for each family they're different).

When you say about mothers feeding in their sleep, you're referring to a breastfeeding / co-sleeping model (I assume). Well the reason I assume that is that obviously that's the only way feeding in your sleep works (at least that's what I remember from my own bf / co-sleeping days). When/if babies move to bottles and/or move to their own cots/rooms(and rightly or wrongly, these changes happen for lots of babies around at around a year) waking & going to the baby in another room, preparing & warming the bottle, takes much more time & energy & really breaks the parents' sleep: and the baby's sleep.

Now of course the answer may be to continue bf / co-sleeping for more than a year. But for many families this is not the preferred choice (again, rightly or wrongly). And there's there's the issue of whether even the bf / co-sleeping solution actually works to increase sleep in toddlers. From my own experience with my very active toddler who's going through a few months of not sleeping well, when he ends up in our bed (which happens quite often nowadays because he wakes & cries) we rarely get any sleep as he moves around so much! Plus giving him milk in the night (which again even though he's almost 16 months we still do on & off) has become a boomerang solution, since the more milk we give, the more he seems to wake for it.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts to say there are no easy / obvious solutions & habit IMO plays a big big part in it.

TikTok: By the way, I'll read the research you've cited, thanks for sending it Although from glancing through it, I have to tell you I have a personal dislike & aversion to research which used an evolutionary perspective. But we'll have to agree to disagree on that one...

'a personal dislike and aversion to this sort of research?' After a glance at the link? Nice to see you keeping an open mind, then [fhmmm]

Some of the research takes an evolutionary and teleological view of the issues, true, but not all of it.

I expect if you tell me which sort of research you like best, I can fish out some links for that, too. It's really pretty well-established stuff that night waking is normal beyond the newborn stage

Not a 'personal' dislike (wrong choice of words)but a strong theoretical disagreement to the use of evolutionary theory in psychology and in the social sciences. Its not a prejudice, its a disagreement.

OK, this is not the forum to discuss any of that, maria

I'd just say that the research into sleep and infancy/childhood that uses evolutionary theory is only a part of it. Pure observation and behavioural stuff is there, too.