'Babies don't need night feeds at 6 months': do we believe this, MN jury?!

[ParanoidAtAllTimes]

I'm EBFing ds (5 months) and planning to do BLW at 26 weeks. He wakes multiple times in the night for feeds so I'm under no illusion that he'll magically sleep through at 6 months. Don't think I have supply problems- good weight gain and content after feeds. So should I try to get him to cut down his night feeds somehow when he's 6 months or will I be denying him vital nutrition?

Oh and I don't think he's having a growth spurt- unless they can last for 7 weeks!

Both my DD's slept 7pm - 7am from four months. I actively encouranged loads of daytime BF feeds with cuddles and fun and stimulation and and they just seemed to make the shift themselves. I did roughly follow GF so that was definitely part of it. I was lucky I think but I also think that if you expect to continue night feeds you probably will. I needed my sleep and had to get a grip on things as DH is in the forces and away for six months at a time.

It's completely up to you but you could try sending in your partner to try and settle with pats/cuddles if you are happy that your last evening feed was a good one.

Edgar- I think he's not always crying for milk as he seems to be having trouble with his gut (bringing knees up, straining). That's another story though!!

'Babies don't need night feeds at 6 months'

Hmm, isn't this a bit like saying no children need nappies from 2.5yrs or all children should be walking by 12 months?

All babies develop differently but i believe the majority probably do need feeding at night still at 6 months. It's beliefs like this that undermine breastfeeding, making mothers think they have to give bottles of formula to fill up baby in day so they can reach that target of undisturbed nights by 6 months, or that their supply is insufficient if baby still wakes up.

And why 6 months, who has chosen that? a baby who has 2 ice cubes of pureed carrot or baby rice at 11am (the commonest weaning IMHO) is unlikely to change their sleep pattern surely.

Loving your post tiktok, thanks for that

tiktok - Right, it was a joke... Very funny.

You didn't specify that the post was directed at cece therefore it is rather a fair assumption that the comment was general since I am not privvy to your thoughts. I read the whole post. As it was a post that was not directed at cece but referenced her 'cry it out' post, I thought you were saying all sleep training is letting babies scream in despair. It's not really that big a leap. You could just have said, 'sorry that post was directed at cece, should have specified' instead you've picked a fight.

So, sorry if I misinterpreted your post but it was because it looked like a general comment.

I have to say, I now realise my DS1 was trying it on as he still had milk in the night/early morning up to around 18 months..! When DS2 recently got to nearly 6mths, I decided to try the 'shush pat' method. I have to say it works a treat and he's now happily going 12 hours without milk. I only wish I tried this with DS1 and it would have saved me a lot of sleepless nights and grumpy days....! I am now of the opinion that they do not really need milk past the age of around 6 months, but it is purely a comfort thing for them.

Of course I am not suggesting this tiktok, DS would not fall back asleep after a minute or two of comforting and shushing if he were hungry or in distress. If I felt he was, I would feed him. But I do believe that there is (IMO) too much 'feeding on demand' encouraged by and followed by MNetters. I feel that if babies are waking several times during the night after say, around the age of 6 months, then their sleep will be diturbed, they will not be getting a proper nights rest, as will their mothers.

I also pointed out that some of your posts are invaluable to MNetters struggling with bfing, I believe there are a lot of mums out there who would not have been able to continue bfing for as long as they wished without your advice and support, which I have seen that you provide a lot of on the bfing threads. I would imagine that it takes up a lot of your free time, and for that I commend you.

MrsBadger you said "CIO is madness for a 6mo - even the chap who invented it said don;t do it before 12m."

This doesn't sound right to me - who is the chap you're referring to? Ferber, who's usually thought of as the inventor, would be fine with his techniques being used - in accordance with his method, which isn't just leaving them to cry - on a six month old.

In fact, it seems to have first been mentioned here first published in 1895. I can't see an age limit mentioned, but I got distracted by some of the other scarily familiar bits of advice that I've still heard from parents/others (e.g. need for babies to exercise their lungs).

DH is now kicking himself for having bought any current baby advice books when we could have downloaded this for free (I'm fairly confident he's joking, just to be clear).

why have i not come across any mention of dads in this message?? dd1 needed to have my nipple in her mouth to stay asleep! if i moved she woke- v uncomfortable! at about 6months- moved to own cot and bedroom and when she woke for a feed DH cuddled, walked,etc etc until she went back to sleep- i think it took about 2nights and she has been a great sleeper ever since ( now 2 1/2). when dd2 arrived i also co-slept, but again at around 6months moved her into own bedroom and DH got up in night when she cried. i did continue to give them both sleepy feed until about 9 months- and always tried to do it before they woke up so they didn't get into that crying and then being fed routine. anyway i think it is v important that even when ebf DP can also offer that same level of comfort to baby, when baby wants comfort and love rather than food- maybe thats just me. finally have to say- for once totally disagree with what tiktok said- and normally i think shes bang on.

Dd (10 months)is breastfed and still wakes occasionally for a night feed.

DD was still walking many times in the night for feeding when she was 9 months or so. I also had DS who was then nearly 2 yrs. I was permanently shattered, would be woken up at 5 something am and be filled with dread at the thought of having to survive a whole sleepless day and with no prospect of sleep the next night. decided to wean her off nightfeeds so I tried a couple of techiniques but what a palaver- at 1am (and 2am, and 3:30- am and 4:30 am ) I had no fortitude to keep up with 'the method'. so - i decided to stop it cold turkey. I never left her to 'cry it out', I carried on picking her up and walking about with her and I offered her a bottle of formula, which she didn't want. The first 3 nights were difficult but it got better and after a week she was waking far less often- only about once I think. Having said that, they're now 5.5 and 4 yrs and they still wake in the night sometimes, though they usually do sleep through these days. good luck!

IsItMe I think in Ferber's 2006 edition of 'Solve your child's sleep problems' he revises quite a lot of his previous guidance but I don't have a copy to hand for exact refs.

DS1 (8.9 pounds) was weaned from 4.5 months, (BF till 5,5 months) at 6 months he was night feeding but in the morning not looking for food/milk for at least an hour after waking if not more, so we decided night feed was a habit & not a need. We cut back the amount of milk we gave him by an ounce each night and when that didnt work we swopped the milk for water - we only needed to do that a couple of times.

DS2 (10,1 pounds) is a different story - only just started weaning him at 6+1 as he not shown any interest until now, did try offering him food about a month ago but he didnt have any interst or a clue about what he should be doing bless him! Wakes for 2 night feeds and still wakes up hungry.

Also I never put DS1 down asleep - always gently nudged him if he went to sleep during a feed, been completly crap at that 2nd time around! But i think being able to self settle plays a huge part in baby sleeping through with no problems (so I am setting myself up wth lots of problems with ds2 lol)

Tinsel, thanks for your nice words

It is normal, however, if not desirable by their parents, for babies to wake several times in the night...this is not disturbed sleep, as they settle quickly again with a feed. Observational studies across all cultures show this is normal, common, human, behaviour (actually, mammalian) - highly unlikely to be developmentally harmful.

Curiosity, you're the one that accused me of 'emotional backmail'( and eye-roll), so if there is a fight, it started there, not picked by me, I can assure you

hana - go ahead, use my post however you like

MrsBadger fair enough. We do have a copy to hand, and it says, e.g. on page 62 "If your child is not sleeping through the night by 3 or 4 months of age, when most full-term infants have "settled", it may be time to start thiking about what could be causing the problem and, perhaps, to begin to correct it; if more than occasionl wakings are still happening when your child reaches 5 or 6 months of age, you not only can but probably should take definite steps to address them."

But he also says on page 139 "if she takes a substantial amount of food - from extended feeds at the breast, or from bottles adding up to more than 250ml over the course of the night - then she has learned that certain times of the night are meal times. To eliminate these feeds suddenly would be neither wise nor kind." He goes on to recommend an approach of stretching the gaps between night feeds in this scenario.

I personally found that last observation very helpful in thinking about how we would try to help our DS sleep better at night.

By curiositykilledhaskittens Thu 10-Dec-09 19:27:41
"princesstoadstool - ahh yes this old 'looks as though you are suggesting' chestnut. If you have to say 'looks as though you are suggesting' that means that's not what I said, doesn't it?

Tiktok - the beef is with your post not with you. The post seemed to me to be suggesting that teaching a child to sleep..."

(my italics) - am I the only one to notice the irony of these statements?

I know the OP is probably not even reading any more, and of course this thread has inevitably become a CIO or not to CIO thread, but I have to add my 2 cents worth.

I completely agree that all babies are different. There is no way my dd would have slept through at 6 months. She was too hungry. We did BLW, and she was a good eater, but amazingly active (crawled at 5.5 months, walked at just under 10). She could go to sleep on her own with no difficulty at all, but she would cry for 3-4 hours at night if she woke and promptly stopped when fed. We did sign language with her and at just over 12 months after I had let her cry for a while she made signs for more food! I took her downstairs and she ate half a cooked chicken breast and immediately went to sleep on her own, no milk. My instincts throughout this time were that she WAS hungry. I think that you have to listen to your instincts. Some posters have said they KNEW it couldn't be hunger; I knew it had to be, but nonetheless spent huge amounts of energy worrying about it!

She began sleeping through at 13 months and now, at 20 months, we simply never hear from her unless she is sick. We gave porridge at bedtime from about 13 months and that might have helped. I bf'd till 18 months.

I am pg again and am simply not going to worry about sleep! If the baby can put himself to sleep at bedteim about 5 months, then that's my job done.

All babies are different. If you are coping with night waking, then I wouldn't worry about it. If you are not coping (have to return to work, can't sleep during the day, etc) then it might be different.

At a mum & baby group this week we were saying that one of the best kept secrets of motherhood that sleep goes to pot at around 6 months (sorry OP!). Lots of reasons - massive growth spurt, development spurt, teething...

At 8m DS still has two feeds a night. TBH I take the route of least resistance - if I'm exhausted I'll try shushing (DS in bedside cot btw) and otherwise, or if that doesn't work, I'll feed him. It's not ideal for me, but I don't feel the need to go through tortuous sleep training and am happy to give DS what he wants even if it is a 'problem', as Ferber apparently puts it. Additionally in DS's case his weight has been dropping down the chart so I'm not going to deny him an opportunity to take on more calories.

My HV (who I rate highly) says that a baby has to be developmentally ready to sleep through and may wake up for a number of reasons, only one of which is hunger, so it's best to look at the whole picture.

dgs is now 9 and a half months.he slept through from about 6 months.He now has 3 solid meals a day and 3 milk feeds[6.30am,3pm and 6.30pm].I honestly think all babies are different but I cant believe leaving a baby to 'cry it out' is ever a good idea.Baby would feel so scared and deserted,there is no way a 6 month old would understand or cope easily with that.They would stop crying when they lost hope of someone coming but it would take a long time to regain the trust you would lose.

Oh gosh once again I post after first page....

My DD was still having night feeds at the same times each night at 11 months and stopped just before she turned 1 iirc. Even if she was still waking at night she refused the milk and eventually we stopped offering it. Recently at the ripe old age of 19 months she was ill and woke on two consecutive nights asking for milk which we gave her.

I never for one moment thought that somehow it was 'wrong' that she do this. With every other change in her routine - dropping daytime feeds, naps and later bedtime I have been led by what she has indicated she wants or is ready for. However, I do believe all babies are different and some may not be such a good feeder as she was and could be a much better sleeper than she was/ is. The parents are the best judges of the needs of their child imo.

so, what would you guys say about a 15 month old who is still waking in the night at least once and often twice and demanding milk? I work full time and he has been on cows milk since he was 12 months, he eats well anough most of the time but has always wanted more milk at night than during the day.

Have tried since he was a year old to discourage this by giving him water but he just drinks all the water and wakes again an hour later asking for his "bobboo" (bottle) so we give up after a week or two.

Have also tried getting him to go back to sleep without feeding, giving sips out of a cup but nothing works as he just roars until he gets his milk.He does seem to be hungry. He won't eat porridge or anything like that but will often have a late meal in the evening and he still wakes up 4 hours later wanting milk.

I can cope with the waking because once he gets the milk he goes straight back to sleep but I am worried about the effect this constant bathng in milk is having on his teeth.

I have not read the rest of the thread so apologies if repeating. IMO a baby is able to sleep through when they are established on solids (3 meals a day), so I think it is somewhere between 6 and 7 months but probably more like 7.

This is what happened with both of mine - DD automatically slept through at this point but DS would wake when he would normally have a feed (from habit) and we would settle him back to sleep without any milk (which was surprisingly easy). He is now 7.5 months and he has been sleeping through for a few weeks now.

Good luck.

OP - the best advice I read on sleep is not to let somebody tell you you have a problem. So ignore your HV if you think she is a muppet - she won't be there at any point in the day or night when you are trying your best to meet your dc's needs.