Will bf work out? Any help appreciated (long)

[berolina]

Hi everyone. As some of you know I had my first baby (a ds) last Weds . We were on the maternity ward until Monday and then he was transferred to the neonatal ward because of his jaundice (needed phototherapy), but we were allowed home today. I was and am determined to bf and put him on the breast from the beginning - latching on and sucking didn't seem a problem. My milk started coming in on the Sat. We started weighing him before and after feeding on that day - he wasn't getting much from me at all and the nurses said I needed to give him pre-formula to stop him losing weight (he weighed 2820g at birth). On the Sun I started expressing to try and get the milk flowing. Things were looking up, but after he was transferred because of the jaundice and was also losing some weight he began to get very sleepy when feeding and would also often refuse to latch on - he'd suck briefly, find no milk immediately forthcoming and scream . Often it would work, but he was taking an hour to get 30-45g out of me. Anyway, the doctors/midwives/nurses said he wasn't getting enough to help with the jaundice and the weight loss, so I've been (reluctantly) giving formula - I always put him on the breast first, and I've been expressing like mad, although it takes me an hour to get to 60-100ml and I then can't express after the next feeding because my breasts are too empty. In other words, he's getting a mixture of (very small amounts of) direct breast milk, EBM and formula, and seems to be doing OK on it, but I'm worried he might give up on the breast because if he refuses it, he gets the bottle (of course). I've started expressing briefly before putting him on the breast and sometimes that seems to work, because he doesn't have to make the effort to get the milk flowing, but it doesn't always. Other times he just goes on the breast with no fuss, other times he refuses it completely. There doesn't seem to be a pattern. This evening he refused the breast (with frustrated screaming and a brief perod asleep) for quite a while, but then suddenly went onto the one I hadn't expressed from! I think I don't yet have a huge amount of milk and that's not helping, and everyone at the hospital said it was medically necessary to feed him up a bit (it's not that they aren't supportive of bf either), but I'm absolutely paranoid now that he won't bf and I'll be stuck expressing for months (or even having to continue to mix EBM with formula). I can't help feeling a bit of a failure and worried/guilty about giving him any formula at all, although I know that the stress I have been and am under won't be helping my milk supply either. Any hints, ideas, similar experiences? TIA!

glad things are settling a bit - give it time - you will get there. And be nice to yourself - you have just had a baby and a physically and menatally exhausted, plus raging hormones

If you think jaundice is still an issue then make sure he gets as much sunlight as possible - sleep him near a window, and with as much skin exposed as you can manage without him getting cold. We avoided ds going into hospital for jaundice by him spending most of the day in the conservatory or outside (it was July).

havent been on your thread but just wanted too say well done berolina big potb (pat on the back!) and keep going with the bf if you can its really worth it ....

Quick update.
Had acouple of good feeds this morning but this afternoon ds is absolutely shattered and seems too tired to take the breast. Expressng is not going brilliantly but I take it it's just the usual ups and downs in the early weeks of establishing supply. I feel so sh*t about giving formula that my goal is to get supply up to be able to give exclusively EBM is ds refuses breast, but I'm quite a way off that yet. (At least I'm giving more EBM than formula, plus some direct BM )
I've got a question prompted by something dh said to me on this subject. As a teenager I hit puberty late and soon after had a pretty minor brush with anorexia, but still one that left me with no periods for 18 months. dh reckons that because of this it might be that my supply will always be on the low side because things didn't develop properly in my breasts due to lack of nutrition. (I've always been on the very small side but I know that's irrelevant to bf). I don't really agree but could he be right?

No - that's not possible. feeding is what makes milk.

Also agree - you don't have to feed every time your baby cries. Babies just do cry sometimes - some more than others. They might be tired (quite often) or just bored and want a change of scene. Rushing for formula at every squeak will not help you breastfeed. I know your dh means well and I think his is a fairly typical attitude from a man who means well, wants to be involved and doesn't really understand why breastfeeding is important to the mother. That's NOT an attack on him at all btw.

No idea on the anorexia thing but gut feeling suggests that if you naturally matured enough to conceive then feeding shouldn't be an issue either. Hope someone can offer some medical reassurance too.

Well done on your progress this weekend. I really hope your dh starts to see that formula is not the magic panacea for you or ds, as you are doing so well. Are you ready to brave a day of just breastfeeding, no bottles offered , just to see how things go ?

Do you think he perhaps sees the bottles as a way of becoming involved ? Can you get him to have a more positive input into b'feeding by checking positioning, winding ds in between boobs rather than hovering waiting to step in, thus unwittingly undermining some of your confidence. Did he see the clips Mears posted ?

Hoep things are looking up for you now.

No i wouldn't think so at all - And your supply sounds fine to me. Samuel is gaining weight and this is the key. Have some faith in yourself and your body. It is working. I would really cut down the expressing too. You must be exhausted and you will struggle to ever catch up with yourself IYKWIM. I think the formula will make Samuel feel fuller than breast milk as it takes longer to digest too so don't let that deceive you or DH... I wish I knew more to offer you some better advice but someone will be along soon.

I also agree with Liz to try a day with no bottles.....see what happens.

Bero, according to my books even women in the Third World on a virtually starvation diet can produce enough milk for their bubs, so I do think your dh's theory is bogus. Much better to tell him it's his responsibility to make sure you get a good healthy diet now - back to the kitchen and less backchat

I'm concerned about dh's insistence on formula for two reasons - firstly I don't think he really understands the biology of breastfeeding and the fact that formula will undermine the demand which is crucial for establishing supply. And secondly I think given how important breastfeeding clearly is to you (and bravo to you for that) you will feel extra pressure to produce enough either to give directly or as EBM. That kind of pressure/stress is going to be counter-productive and possibly a self-fulfilling prophecy - you produce less, dh feels justified in giving formula, etc.

So all in all - and bear in mind I have absolutely no practical experience so you can totally ignore me! - I would definitely agree with the others and suggest you have a day in bed with little Samuel and give no formula at all.

He was a pretty good weight for a premie anyway and seems to be coming on in leaps and bounds. Have a large glass of wine and get your feet up, girl - you've definitely earnt it!

berolina sorry to be blunt but i think your dhs idea is crap
ive bf 2 ds (now 2) for 6mths solely and then until he was about 14mths he never had a bottle (ever!)
same for dd(1) im still bf her but she has bottle too

just wanted to say that i didnt express at all cause when i tried there didnt seem to be much there(even with electric pump) couldnt get much by hand so i gave up trying to express but carried on feeding and everything was fine

Thanks everyone. This is unfortunately really becoming a contentious issue between myself and dh. He says Samuel has been so tired today because of going on the breast so much yesterday. He also reacted rather negatively when I suggested ringing up the LLL bf couunsellor in the next small town (there is none here directly) and seeing if she would come over and visit us. He knows how much I hate giving ds formula and how worried I get that when ds struggles with his digestion (as is happening right now - his nappies are fine though) it's to do with the formula, but he wants to carry on giving it.
I do worry about the idea of just spending a day in bed with ds not giving any bottles, because of the number of times he completely refuses the breast. He'll be hungry and it'll be time for a feed, but he'll just scream and cry, I'll calm him down by rocking or dh will take him, but the screaming will start again as soon as he comes near the breast again, and so on. Do you mean if I just didn't give any bottles, he would eventually 'give in' and drink from the breast? What I'm worried about is that he wouldn't.
I also have to admit, as much as I want to get bf sorted, I'm a bit apprehensive about the idea of a visit from a bf counsellor, just because I really don't want to hear I've done ds damage or put him at risk by giving formula - I'm worried enough as it is after having read several studies and statistics - and can't help feeling dispirited at the thought of all the mistakes I've probably made...
I wonder why I was so naive at the outset, thinking bf would 'just happen naturally'? I never imagined ds would be having so much as one bottle. I was a frantic worrywart throughout pregnancy and worried how I would cope with the general demands of parenthood, but never about bf. Adjusting to the fact it hasn't happened smoothly is a huge shock. I'm getting very morbid worrying about severe gastroenteritis, SIDS etc.

Just realised how often I've written the word 'worry' and derivatives in that post! Afraid it's an accurate representation of my state of mind though!

berolina - his may come out as really tactless...but could you be suffering from post natal depression? in retrospect, i think i did adter what i went throughg with ds1. so many of your posts soind like how i was feeling following the really hard first weeks we had all that time ago. i never really accepted that i was depressed abd everyone just said that they werent surprised i was nervous, worried, etc but i wisj i had got some help as i found the furst 4 months very hard indeed and have really struggled on and off since oing back to wotk in dec 2002
isince havng ds2 3 wees ago, i feel more relaxed than i have in many years,

is your dh off work? how do you feel bout spending the da alone with ds and seeing ho it goes? i know how hard it is to have faith in your body..i struggked with it with ds2 even. (typing one handed sorry)

do you have any practical help from anyone other than dh? friends, family?

Can you phone the LLL bfc first and sound her out before asking her to visit. I cannot believe there would be any recriminations from her if you tell her your "history" and show her, as clearly as you have here, how much you want b'feeding to succeed. I suspect your dh is over anxious, wanting ot help but not kowing how and putting his foot in it, but I don't think one day without formula is going to do any harm and tbh I'm not sure what you have to lose by trying. Yes, ds may get hungry, possibly more frequently than with formula top ups, but he won't starve and if you are concerned about digestion etc only reverting to exclusive b'feeding, with ebm as a possible standby could prove it.

Are you getting any more sleep yet ? Sleep deprivation can play cruel tricks and you do lose your sense of proportion, possibly hence your morbid fixations. It is ahrder than many people think, myself included ot get b'feeding going properly - please don't beat yourself up about it and concentrate on the way forward, in small steps - next feed, tonight, tomorow, this week etc. Good luck

Berolina - it would be so much better if you would call the LLL counsellor. Your DH is not helping by insisting that DS continues to get formula.

The suggestion of taking him to bed all day to feed without bottles is so that he will not get upset by being in constant touch with you. By not giving formula, he will learn to breastfeed properly. He knows how to fix and feed and to continue to give teats just undoes good work that you are doing. He will not starve. Let him have unrestriced access to you for the day and see how he does. You are right that I mean if he does not get a bottle he will 'give in' and breast feed. He may reject the breast because he does not want to feed at that time. You may be deciding that he should feed longer than he actually wants to. Remember he will always suck a teat connected to a bottle of formula whether he is hungry or not.

DH would learn how to support you better while establishing brast feeding. Formula helped your DS initially but to be honest, it sounds as though he is getting formula too often due to your DH's lack of understanding. I know you are concerned that you do not want to starve your baby, but he does need to learn to breast instead of bottle feed. Your DH is right in one thing - he is assuming bottle feeding is easier for him. It is at the minute because he has not established breast feeding technique. Once he has mastered that, he will find breast feeding easy and natural. You definately needs hands on support to achieve that.

lalecheleague
i phoned them and the person i spoke to was lovely very reassuring and gave me lots of good advice

sorry thats the wrong page if you go to the home page and click uk you should be able to go from there to find a number

PND popsycal? I don't know. I think not, at least atm - probably more that this feeding issue has become all-consuming. This evening I've realised very clearly that it is preventing me enjoying my beautiful gorgeous baby. I feel caught between all your advice and opinions (which I really appreciate and do tend to agree with btw!), dh's, and MW's (the problem is largely psychological on my side plus ds needs time to grow and get stronger, just keep at it and it will work eventually - plus she said, when she was here last Thurs, that she thinks I'll always have to mixed feed, which was a bit of a shock, especially because she is very pro-bf). Won't ramble on too much now - I'm not upset, just tired and dispirited. Will get back to you and reply to your posts in more detail tomorrow. Trib, you're not the first to recommend a large glass of wine - wish we had some in the house!

Meant to say 'will get back to you all...'.
aaarrrgghh.

Ah Bero, those bloody German shops not being open on a Sunday. I understand entirely. (Not that there are exactly many shops open here at this time of night but at least they have been open today). I suggest sending dh out for emergency supplies tomorrow - I would deffo be doing the same thing if we were still out in Sweden! (God forbid - offy only open til 2 pm on Saturday).

one more thing fight for your right to bf-your determined and youve got this far so dont give up now-sure dh thinks he is giving advice which he thinks is best but im SURE that everything will settle and get better and youll soon forget all the fuss

I think I can promise no breastfeeding counsellor will start beating you up over how you've been feeding your baby. Why would they? They are there to help you.
How about that day in bed with no formula? Your ds is thriving and he won't starve himself in 12 hours.
Mears is ever so sensible! And she's a midwife too.
I am sure you will get there. Please make sure you get some rest.
And new babies are tired all the time! They sleep a LOT.

In fact, nice long sleeps are usually a good sign that your baby is contented and NOT HUNGRY .

Hope you got some wine in berolina. This is my experience... After 6 days in hospital, with midwives either side pummelling each breast and positioning my son on each, and trying all kinds of puppetry (nipple shields) and mentioning that I had "rather flat nipples" and that is why he wouldn't latch, it was suggested my son had a tongue tie. The paed turned up the next day (it was a Sunday when they were called and it was not an emergency)and said he didn't have a tongue tie and it wouldn't make a difference if he did. I asked for a bottle for my ebm, and have never seen such contented happy sucking in my life. None of the midwives said goodbye to me as I left later that day, despite the "close personal relationship" we'd developed for the previous 6 days. I gave him ebm topped up with formula for 6 weeks. I did try, everything that the LLL suggested, and when I got in the bath with him to "take him back to the womb" and he instantly emptied his little mustard seed bowel in the bath water and all over me, I cried.
My choice in the end was to feed my son formula as I was exhausted with trying to offer him my breast before each feed and seeing him reject me each time. I was exhausted with endless sterilising and expressing and sterilising and expressing and I was exhausted with the respiratory tract infection I'd brought home from hospital and the subsequent mastitis on New Years Eve and beyond.
I was bottle fed. It was 1970 and I had been adopted - no choice. I made a choice. I don't regret it. I decided not to beat myself up over the decision I made. I'm happy and healthy and I have a very happy and healthy baby.

Good luck honey - I hope whatever you choose works out for you both

Oh berolina.....it's so sad you are worrying so much. I go back to what I suggested a week ago: get someone in who can cut through all the conflicting messages, someone who really knows about how to support breastfeeding, and someone you can trust. If you find that person, then I would even say 'stay off mumsnet', because everyone, including us, throwing in their two pennorth risks confusing the situation. You need to build up your confidence, and coming onto the web all the time listening to other people's experiences and advice is really not doing this for you.....in my opinion.