FANTASTIC article on extended breastfeeding in today's Guardian

[emkana]

here

I'm sorry but i can still support breastfeeding with passion whilst believing that breast feeding a four year old is weird and unnecessary. It shows a mother cannot let go of a child's extreme dependency on her alone. Which is why the bitty sketch is simultaneously funny and revolting, because neither the characters can let go of this primal bonding and have a mature relationship.

oh come on guys, this is taking it way too far regarding the little britain sketch. It is in no way trying to have a pop at women who breast feed. Its having a pop at women who would breast feed their children until they were fully grown adults if they could and would find an argument to support why its a great thing. I'm sorry if you think that's outrageous but I have read some comments on breast feeding threads and really wondered at what age some people think you ought to stop if at all. If you ask people a direct question about that you never seem to get an answer. So I think it is a mocking sketch but its mocking a particular mentality which does seem to exist. I have breast fed, I support it, I think its great. But I do think its strange and unnecessary to feed a child by the breast when they are perfectly able to drink cows milk and use a cup. I just can't understand any of the arguments for breast feeding children beyond 3 years for instance. Furthermore, if I discovered that my husband (or any boyfriends previously) had been breast fed whilst they were at school I would think it was really really weird and I would wonder what psychological effects it had had on him. I am wholly confident I am in the minority on MN but I know with certainty I am not in RL. That is what the little britain sketch is about and if you can't see the difference I think its political correctness gone stark raving mad.

Where is the evidence for this? I bf my ds until he was 4 and know lots of kids fed this long too including my dh. Ds was in full time nursery from 3, and dh was sent to boarding school abroad when he was 10. I always find reading such judgemental posts amazing as there is absolutely no research or evidence to back up these claims.

The world average for weaning is four years old and naturally children should be weaned any age between 2 and 6.

You are not in a minority to bf for a long time although that is true for this country. I do hope one day people will be able to feel comfortable with extended bf without feeling it is weird and the mother must be psychologically disturbed and producing a malfunctioning screwed up child.

So, I ask again, where is your evidence???

Mature relationship!! My son is now 9 and we dont have a mature relationship! That's because he's nine. When he's 18, I'll consider it.

I thought it was a great article.

I found it sad that the mum Rebecca felt as though she couldn't BF in public when her children were over 2 because of peoples adverse reactions.

Suedonim - I've never seen the Bitty sketch either. Not sure if I've missed something really great or it would have screwed me up.

As for recent comments about the age you stop bf... my teacher at High School was quite open about the fact that she'd bf her son until he was 5. This is 20 years ago now (and an all girls school...) I recollect we were all quite shocked at this and no one ever said 'I'd like to do that too'. But then, I think that I thought bf was for 'little babies' and never really saw any images of older babies/toddlers/beyond being bf - you just don't see it and nobody really talks about it.

However, given that WHO are recommending (think I got this right) that you bf for 2 years minimum, it seems entirely reasonable that some will bf for 3 or 4 years (just as some will bf for much less than 2 yrs or not at all.)

I guess I'm lucky that I could bf my ds's until they were 1yr and 19mths, never had to make a particular issue of it, did it quietly at home (ie never bf ds2 on bus at 19mths!), and have group of friends who generally also bf for at least 9mths, so plenty of support.

I am with Tiktok on this one. You all know my feelings about breastfeeding and support women to the hilt. I actually find that sketch funny. I do not see it as an attack on breastfeeding at all. It certainly makes you cringe but so does most of the other stuff on LB.
I am a bit surprised to see how many of you feel about it. Perhaps it is because I am no longer feeding. Don't know.

Hercules I can't see what you are asking me to provide "evidence" for? My own feeling that it is strange and unnecessary to feed a child of school age by the breast? I don't need to provide evidence for it, its my own feeling as I suspect it is also for the majority of society. I would feel very uncomfortable seeing a child in school uniform suddenly start sucking his mothers breast in a restaurant, I don't need to provide evidence of that. Same way I would feel really odd dating a man who had been breast fed until a very late age. I'm not talking pre-school, I mean 5 plus. I'm not asserting that children who are breast fed beyond this age are damaged by the experience, but am saying I would wonder about both the man I was dating and my prospective mother in law as I just do not understand or accept any argument put forward by the mother as to why she NEEDS to put a 5 plus old child on her breast or how it is benefitting that child when other children of that age drink regular milk and feed themselves. Incidentally I saw the head of the La Leche League being interviewed a couple of years back and she b/f her son until he was 11. The majority of people in the studio were shocked at this and asked her legitimate questions about why she felt she wanted to do this. She said there was one feed a day after school, she did it in a darkened room and it was their "quiet, close time together". I'm sorry but read a story, eat food together, ask him about his day, you do not need to put an 11 year old boy to you breast for it to be your special close time and if you do need that (a general you not you personally) then expect many more sketches like Little Britain because society in general finds it strange.

From the dearth of TV progs on at the moment it seems that children have had some terrible "psychological effects" to quote bosscat. Wonder how many of them are breastfed? Probably none.

A 2 year, 3 year old etc doesn't think "I am being breastfed, this is weird" they just think its normal. Which it is. If they think its wrong it's because an adult has said so. Usually an adult who has never breasfed an older child and hence doesn't know what they are talking about.

Why can't we just be left alone to raise our NORMAL children.

I meant those parenting progs by the way.

Also why the comparison with cow's milk. What has that got to do with it? My kids have had great appetites and drink some cows milk but have still breastfed them. Sometimes they've been ill and don't want cows milk, and why should they... or other times it just comforts them. Anything wrong with comforting your child?

bosscat - As for your future husband and mother in law. Well do you really think you are going to worry about something that happened maybe a quarter of a century ago? or longer depending on your age. Come on ? if you are going to get all 'ciky' about this kind of thing you may as well say you can?t have a relationship with her because her son came out of her vagina! Apologies for being crude. There are masses of ?embarassing? things that go on between mother and children but they are forgotten about in time.

I don't know about an 11 year old... if she and he were happy about it then who am I to judge? The only time I'd see it would be an issue is when puberty starts. Which in boys is about 13 I think.

My post was mainly aimed a VP. Yes, it is the majority in this society but not world wide. I shudder at the way lots of children are being brought up in this country and the problems I see are not caused by breastfeeding but bad parenting.
Not sure about the uniform eithr. Ds didnt start school until 9 months later. He didnt have to wear a uniform in his private nursery - does that make it a difference? Some kids dont start school until 7 - how does that change your view?

The point I'm trying to make is that just because it's not seen to be normal in this country doesnt automatically make it a bad thing.

It is not a race to get your child on to cows milk (although ds was drinking cowsmilk from 1 anyway) nor does it make it more of a normal relationship if your child is given the milk of another species.

Breastfeeding is natural and has been around since time began. It is amazing that something that has existed as long as sex has is deemed to be wrong as soon as a child reaches a certain age.

I guess not wanting to marry someone breastfed this long excludes a large part of the population from your marriage choices.

Sorry , reread your post and you said children over 5 you wouldnt want to marry. Stil dont see why though.

My 5.5 year old son has asked to be breastfed as he's seen his sister (2 months old) being BF. I didn't but couldn't quite put into words (to myself and my DH) why not. To DS I said that if I BF him I wouldn't have enough milk for his sister. He then said he just wanted a taste. Then I said he's got teeth (in the hope he'll forget this by the time his sister has teeth and she's still BF). He promised not to bite. In the end he said he'll have a bottle of powder milk. So he had a bottle of formula. Now, it's clear he wanted attention and comfort, just what some of the extended breastfed children get out of it (leaving aside the nutritinal aspect). But I really didn't feel comfortable with the idea.

So what age would you say would it become unnatural to be breast feeding a child? Or would it be natural to give him a feed on his wedding day like the parody in the LB sketch? Is there an age where it should stop even if the child is happy for it to continue? Someone mentioned puberty. A friend's husband is a barrister and he is representing an 11 year old who is alleged to have raped an 8 year old, so why pick the age of 13? It would seem some young boys are more sexual than others at an earlier age. I only mentioned cows milk Eulalia as an example of not being able to understand why mothers would b/f a child at say the age of 5 plus when they don't need breast milk anymore, the vast majority of children are having their calcium etc from cows milk, are feeding themselves and are in fact encouraged to be independent. I don't really know what you are going on about "comforting" or how that relates to my point at all tbh. Please don't try and turn this into a 'breast v cows' milk argument! I b/f both my boys and am completely pro b/feeding, my only point is that I do not understand or accept the argument that a child past the age of 5 NEEDS to be b/f and it is an entirely valid point. And yes I would absolutely get 'cikey' about my future dh (although I am actually married) if he had been b/f at the age of 11 ! I would think my MIL was stark raving bonkers. Not just me either Eulalia, I can't think of a single friend who would be comfortable with that. I am not talking about 2 and 3 year olds, I would not choose to b/f that long myself but I think its completely normal for others who do. I am only talking about 5 plus or rather school age. But my original question which I would honestly be very interested in hearing the answer to is what age would you consider it to be appropriate to stop b/f even if the child was happy?

Ok - sorry meant 'icky' - mistyped there.

Answer to your question - I think most kids grow out of the need around age 3 or 4 although I know some may want to do it up to around age 7. It wasn't pointed out in that article that Dettwyler believes that the 2nd set of teeth is often timed with the cessation of breastfeeding in most cultures. Hence the name 'milk teeth' perhaps. 11 I think is most unusual and not something I've ever heard of. Certainly a long way from most people's wedding day though. But I would say about 6 or 7 would be an appropriate age to stop and most would have stopped long before then anyway.

My son I think has stopped he has gone from doing it every night last year when he turned 5 and we moved him into his own bedroom, to doing it about once a month and that was when he was really quite upset. He will be 6 in July and I feel that this is the end of it now. dd has just turned 3 and in just a few months she has gone from b/feeding a few times a day to just once at night and even then she often goes to sleep without it. I think she will stop earlier, before age 4 although she may renew her interest in it for awhile when our new baby comes this summer. I am just playing it by ear and don't anticipate it dragging on longer than necessary.

The comfort thing is largely because that is what it is about, if your child is only having one feed a day then the amount of milk actually taken in is very small. It is more of an emotional relationship than one of food. That's why its not really appropriate to compare it with milk intake per se (cows or otherwise). Yes perhaps a child doesn't need it but our kids don't need lots of things, sweets for example or as many toys but we still give them because they enjoy them. One of the great things about b/feeding is that it is harmless, free and doesn't rot teeth or make you fat. And there is no evidence to show that it interferes with independence in any way.

Hope that explains my position a bit better.

Eulalia, thanks for long post, much appreciated. How do you think the La Leche Leage woman managed to keep her 11 year old interested in b/f for that long? Its very odd and I wonder when she will deem it an appropriate time to stop. I hope her son's friends don't find out he is still being b/f, kids can be very cruel in secondary school

Yes, comfort is the main attraction for a young child. It's not going to be sexual even, heaven forfend, for a randy eleven year old boy if he's been doing it nightly since baby hood. Any more thsn it's sexual for a fully mature, sexually active woman. It is the fact that it can be perceived as sexual which is the difficulty. And I do think that an eleven year old would be highly unusual if they didn't mind or notice that. Likewise the mother.

I suspect that the main thing that brings extended breastfeeders (the children, that is) to the end of their b/feeding habit, is the awareness that it is 'for babies'. A childhood is for growing up in. They are always reaching forwards and even the mother who wishes it wouldn't happen so fast is onto a loser ... But as mothers we are contracted to support their efforts to grow up AND their need to reach 'backwards' into what is familiar.

The extent to which one child or another reaches forward, or back, depends on the child. It is a lucky child who finds him or herself with a mother who entirely supports both the growing up and the hanging on to old habits.

It's a shame that the third voice in the relationship is society's voice, and that it's seldom sympathetic, but then, how else could it be?

Cristina, I can understand your feeling uncomfortable at your son's wanting to 'try' - it is not a habit to him, so he'd be experiencing your body differently from normal. It's the habitual nature of b/feeding that makes it such a huge and vital part of babyhood, and potentially so difficult to separate from childhood.

I suppose a little bit of crossover between babyhood and childhood is no great sin - certainly ought not to be such a huge big deal!

That's OK bosscat and sorry I was a bit spikey earlier - just getting a bit defensive. did you not say the boy was fed until he was 11 so had presumably stopped now? I guess it was just kept secret the way some of us other 'closet' b/feeders don't talk about it. Different for me as ds is autistic so a bit developmentally delayed although he started school at normal age. I do know a friend of a friend's girl was still b/feeding when she started school and having met the girl I would never have known. the only way I can describe it is like a special cuddle. Also its a form of lazyness in some ways for me as I know it ALWAYS works... I stopped enjoying it though with both kids around age 2.5 but have continued just because I can't be bothered to find an alternative to keep them happy when upset. It seems to have worked and as I said before they've just lost interest in their own time. And I can put up with something that only lasts a minute or so anyway. Also on the plus side its kept my periods away for ages and I suppose I can be smug about keeping breast cancer at bay.

spots - that is a good way of putting it - moving forwards and backwards. I suppose why some kids suck their thumbs for years, some even into their teens when they just want to feel comforted. Even my dh sometimes likes me to 'tuck' him into bed and he is 59!

do you know, I have absolutely no memory of whether she had stopped feeding him at 11! I don't think she had but it is a distant memory so I could be wrong. Her attitude to it did sadly put me off the La Leche League and I wonder if David Walliams was watching it too and came up with the sketch?

I think one of the reasons that people are put off breastfeeding toddlers is that they don't breastfeed their toddlers. For a woman who hasn't breastfed since their baby was next to newborn, if at all, breastfeeding an older baby will seem alien. However, if you've breastfed that child every day since they were born, they're not suddenly a two-year-old - the idea of breastfeeding a two-year-old (just any random two-year-old) makes me feel a bit icky, but if DS was two (he's 13 mo on Tuesday), I'm sure it wouldn't be a big deal.

I don't want to keep him a baby, I love watching him growing up and learning new things. But he so obviously loves breastfeeding, so why I should deny him that in favour of something that's not as good nutritionally for him, doesn't provide him with antibodies specifically tailored for him and doesn't have the lovely peaceful, happy-making effect a breastfeed does, I will never understand!

Hunkermunker that was a brilliant post, am quite indifferent about this and haven't contributed for these reasons but your post just made me see things so different.

Thank you!

You are more than welcome!

HM - yes that's it completely - they don't suddenly become 2, it's just one day you realise that they are actually 2 and still bfed. I don't say I'm still breastfeeding anymore - I say I'm weaning more slowly than average.