Tiktok are you there? Talk me down from the edge..

[Tinkerisdead]

I cant do a link (im sobbin my heart out and now is not the first time to try) After yesterday where i posted to say my DD had only put on 2oz in 5 weeks and HV had sent me to GP..

Have been to GP who rechecked charts and she has gone from 50th centile to 2nd. She discussed my feelings on formula and early weaning and respected my views but basically told me that DD is nowhere near where she should be, that a plateau of weigt to that extent is not normal. She has advised that I feed her as normal at night but give her formula as well. I raised the issue that surely thats milk that DD will not then seek from me in the night.

Ive come away sobbing, everything ive read says feed feed feed. But I cant get DD to stay on, she feeds around 12 minutes each boob and i even revisit each one afterwards to ensure im emptied. She already feeds every 2 hours and pumping gives me nothing.

Ive read kellymom, ive called la leche, ive called the ABM. I even called my indie midwife. Everyone says feed her more, but I cant make her feed anymore than she is, she just turns away.

I feel like i cant afford to ignore the advice as I feel like ive starved my baby but my head says how can a breast milk substitite be the answer? Please please can someone advise me, im devastated that I dont seem to have done a good enough job.

TDW46, I'm sorry and angry on your behalf that you are going through this. I went through a very, very similar experience with my dd (search the archives for posts by verylittlecarrot). My dd was ridiculously slow gaining and plateaued for weeks around this age too. She never lost weight, just gained very slowly. She plunged off the bottom of the charts completely. Like yours, she fed extremely frequently, day and night. I AGONISED over it and was constantly scared of what I might be forced to do by the doctors. All tests showed her to be perfectly healthy.

The long and short of it is this; she was perfectly healthy and happy then, and is the same now. There was never a problem in reality. But I felt the HCPs lacked the confidence to say, wow, what a small baby, but there isn't a problem here.

She still breastfeeds at 20 months.

I held out until 26 weeks, and introducing solid foods at that stage kickstarted her weight gain into a faster mode.

I can tell you this; knowing what I now know, if I have another child and have to deal with the same situation, I will avoid going to see a health care professional needlessly, at all costs. They are there for when my child is SICK. I won't allow myself to be bullied and terrified because HCPs have neither the competence nor the desire to recognise that an unusual child can still be a healthy child.

hi doctorswife.
I really am a doctor's wife, and a doctor myself. i had exactly this problem with ds1. falling off centiles despite 1-2hourly feeding, went from 75% to 2%. my hv didn't suggest formula, but didn't have any other suggestions either. i saw GP and then a Paed, who said i 'had' to top up with formula (ds about 13weeks). i sobbed for days, then reluctantly topped up with formula and quickly he refused to bf at all, but his weight did increase. also my dh and mil (a gp) were heavily pressuring me to ff.

i am still bf ds2 now at 16months. i have spent HOURS thinking of what i could have done differently last time. basically i think you need to see someone in person to talk to and get strategies for increasing your lo's intake of breastmilk. that may include breast compressions, domperidone and whatever else they think might be required. she may be called a infant feeding co-ordinator or something. Phone up your local bfc and see them and also ask to be referred to the specialist which your PCT should have. but you need to see an expert face to face.

i see and respond to many posts on a doctors website where it is clear that doctors' attitudes to bf vary widely, but many say -'i have never seen a child harmed by formula feeding' and 'my 3 were formula fed and all at uni now and fit and well so what is the problem, just ff' and 'just ff. happy mum=happy baby' etc. also suspicion of 'bf zealots' etc. so, of course what your GP says is important, especially as she has seen your baby, but her advice is not necessarily based on just good scientific evidence, but also her own experience and personal views.

good luck with it, i really do know how you are feeling, it is awful, but you will get through it however you decide to proceed. best wishes xx

Academicum I've been told togo dairy free too, so hopefully it will help ds! So far the paed has only asked for a poo sample but may do a skin prick test when we start weaning...

Jackbunnysmama I think that was me about the weaning. I didn't mean she should stop bf or early wean or that it would help the baby's weight, just that weaning seems to be one of the things the HV & GP might be thinking of, but that the OP isn't actually that far off the 26 week period, so why not wait a little longer. Was a bit tired last night & didn't phrase that very well . Certainly I'm pro-bf as long as you can (fed dd to 14mths when she gave it up)

Doctorswife Agree with Becaroo re: referral.

DS has always been low weight, but after much hassle from H/V, I saw our GP and asked rather forcefully for a referral to a Paediatrician who assessed DS as healthy, just small. He reassured me that total reliance on the percentiles is superficial, and is an alert system for health care professionals that a baby may need to be examined, but has to be used as a tool in conjunction with other observations.

The Paediatrician then wrote in the red book that b/fing was to continue.

It later turned out that DS is severely dairy allergic, and is now putting on weight since being dairy free. Seems weird that by taking something out of a diet would make one gain weight

weasle, interesting that you involve yourself with doctors' discussions on this - and really good that you do this.

I think what doctors (and others) miss is that for many women, breastfeeding is not just a way of getting food into a baby. It is part of their relationship with the baby, and an integral badge of identity for themseleves. They don't say to themselves 'I want to breastfeed my baby because I don't want him to get diarrhoea'....they're not stupid, they know that while formula certainly has a health effect they'd prefer to avoid, this is not life and death in this country and will not mean inadequate intelligence or growth. That's not what lies at the heart of their desire to breastfeed. To them (and I include myself in this, too), it's part of being a mother - and the ache at not doing it, and the fear of not being 'allowed' to do it, is, as TheDoctorsWife says, 'devastating'.

It should be part of a GP's role to recognise that and support it.

morning all, im so touched by all the reassuring words of wisdom.

Last night i pumped 1.5 oz and based on opinion on here, im going to try and pump after each feed and eek out whatever i can. If i then use it to top up each evening im surely following GP advice of topping her up albeit not formula.

I have called a bf counsellor who suggested taking to our bed today and feeding at will. So im at home offering her boob at will. She just fell asleep on one which is unheard of!

bessmum sorry missed baby group, just trying to get back to skin to skin/constant access and you may not have appreciated by naked form over a coffee!

Tiktok, you have captured my sentiment exactly, feeding my baby is the core of my mothering and to made to feel as though is is harmful destroys me.

I didnt have her weighed for 5 weeks as i felt the same as others on here that the routine weighing made me worry unnecessarily. But I went so that I could fill in her baby book (a bit pfb?) and now I feel terrible. I have no idea how to get a lactation consultant or similar to watch her feed etc. I have called peer worker and she recommended i take to my bed and keep feeding.

babymooning is a great idea - hope you have a lovely pile of books, a flask of tea, and are enjoying snuggling down and just offering her a boob whenever she stirs.

Hand expressing after each feed (or whenever you feel thus inclined) is probably going to be more efficient than using a pump - just keep a couple of wide mouthed bottles in the fridge, and you can then express into an empty one, then tip into the fuller just before expressing again. It also reduces the faff of pumping.

Could you call the maternity unit where you had DD and ask about an infant feeding co-ordinator there ?

Weights and ages as requested Tiktok

born - 7lb 15.5oz
3 weeks - 8lb 15.5oz
5 weeks - 9lb 5.5oz
7 weeks - 9lb 15oz
8 weeks - 10lb 3oz(had a cold and green poo)
9 weeks - 10lb 12oz
13 weeks - 11lb 2oz
18 weeks 11lb 4oz

The docs wife, I know tiktok didn't agree with my post, but i was only going on my experience and what I have been told

but anyway looking at those measurements it looks like you dd is doing great, so enjoy your day in bed with your dd

dd1's red book was beside me had a quick look at her measurements, anytime her weight didn't increase that much it coincided with her height increasing

my dd is def getting much longer, both dh and i commented that some sleep suits that were massive, she is now pushing the feet out. but they never ever measure her height!

just pumped about another 1/2 oz after a feed so its all helping! i hope!

Looking at those measurements, shes averaging a lb every fortnight, except for the last one, bet that coincides with her sleepsuits all starting to get too small,

bf is hard work, its sad that it shouldn't be, I found with both my dds I had problems, and lost my cofidence and there are lots of people quick to say formula feed,
with ds who is the middle, I had loads of confidence and no problems and most people kept their noses out, problem with him couldn't get him off the breast
so again enjoy your day at you as my dd is 2.6 now and stopped breastfeeding at 4 months

Thoses measurements seem fine!!

DD1

Born 7lb 11oz
8 days 8lb
12 days 8lb 1 oz
3 weeks 8lb 6
4 weeks 8lb 7
5 weeks 8lb 8
6 weeks 8lb 8
7 weeks 8lb 9
8 weeks 8lb 9 1/2

And this was a formula fed baby!! In fact I bf for 3 weeks (the time she was putting on weight) and then fully ff at 3 weeks on Must be a coincidence!!

The more i read on here the better I feel. Maybe i should just scrawl across her baby book

"Didnt get you weighed as it turned mummy into gibbering heap. You are alive and well"

Can someone tell me more about domperidone, im confused as wiki says its not licensed etc, but shows used for relux babies but helps lactation. Is it something i buy or something prescribed here. and is it work a go, ive already got my lactation tea, oats on the shopping list but im thinking if i can boost my supply, get her to stay on longer and top her up with EBM then she may well put on enough weight to stick up HV arse!

Docswife - I am not a healthcare professional and I have not been trained in the use of charts, but I have translated those measurements into metric, and plotted them on the WHO chart, and I cannot justify all this anxiety

This would be worth doing yourself, and you can read the training booklet that goes with it www.who.int/childgrowth/training/en/ Print out a copy of the 'z-chart' and plot your dd's growth on it. Share what you find with your GP and/or HV.

Your dd crossed the 'median' line at 5 weeks, and faltered a little at 13 weeks, but none of this means anything pathological - yes, it justifies 'lets have a little bit of a closer look at this baby', which is what happened, 'to check the baby is healthy'.

It is fine to offer her more bf, if she will take it.

I don't know much about domperidone, other than as you say it is sometimes prescribed for reflux babies but when taken by a nursing mother it has a side effect of increasing milk supply.

I would imagine it has to be prescribed though.

I have a recipe for a "lactation shake" if you like, but I think I used the wrong yeast, it tasted horrible and I could feel it all fermenting in my tummy! (Gave me wind all day too )

cherrychoc....erm i'll wait til ive tried oats first i like

Thedoctroswife64: my ds was a non failure to thrive baby who did not follwo the growth cahrt. He dropped from the 91st centile at birth to hjust underneath the charts, which he then followed for a while before gradually creeping back up into the cahrt s and follwing the 25th. He took 6 weeks to regain birthweight. After the big initial drop, he never actuallylost weight, just put on very lettiel each week.

I had fantastic support from the start from the breastfeeding counsellors (also midwives) at the maternity hospital. Early on, they encouraged me to "top up" with EBM (initially after feeds and then I also gave them as "in between feeds too) and to wake him at night to feed him. I was able to express loads - but it made no difference to his weight gain

Throughtout all of this, ds was a happy, healthy and alert child. His grandafther - who was a paediatric radiologist was not concerned (even though he would have said he was unqualified to comment - but this was his previous first - and still only - grandchild ).

The Bf counsellors did refer him to the consultant paediatrican at the hospital, just to cover themselves. I swa him when ds was about 7 weeks old - ie only just regained birthweight, underneath the growth charts - and he took one look at the healthy baby iun front of him, said he was fine and that he would following his own growth curve (effectively a form of "catch down" in that he had been correcting form his "heavy" birthweight and was then adjusting onto a delayed curve - which was exactly what he did). He was more interested in finding out what my dad had been doing since he retired (they worked at the same hospital).

Ds is now 8 - happy, healthy - and slim. He had been following (roughly - I rarely weigh him) the 50th centile for both height and weight.

I appreciate that the HV and GP are both health professionals - but they are no statisticians and so are misinterpreting the growth charts. A good health profession (like the ones I saw) should look at more than just the weight before assuming that there is a problem - and form hwat you have described, I do not see anything else to be concerned about.

Oh - and the consultant told me to "stop the faff of expressing" and just to go on feeding him normally myself and enjoy my baby

(As it happened, I did continue epxressing as it helped me build stocks and keep ds used t it for when I went back to work when he 4 months old)

is this web site of any use?

Disclaimer: I am not a HCP (in fact I am an accountant!) but I have seen this on screen as an active ingredient in one of those adverts on TV where the women talk about their constipation.

So with a bit of googling I have found out that domperidone is the ingredient in Motilium 10 which you can buy over the counter.
This talks about its use in breastfeeding, and though I don't have a link, I assume Kelly Mom does too.

Personally I would want to discuss it with a doctor first, but there is the info ayway....

Good luck, you are doing a fab job!

On Kelly Mom

So glad you feel a bit better TDW, hope you're enjoying your babymoon. It's so lovely when they fall asleep nursing, isn't it? I know exactly how you feel about breastfeeding being an essential part of mothering your child. DS is now 13 1/2 months and still a milk-monster. It's much more to us than nutrition. It's comfort, hitting the reset button when he has a meltdown, cuddles, naps... I was thinking the other day that there is nothing, nothing, like looking down at a sleepy baby nursing. [PFB emoticon]

I was prescribed domperidone by my doctor on the advice of a bf consultant, but she said that till I got the prescription I could use motilium 10 which is an otc drug. So you can pick it up if you need to. Other things I was recommended (that you've probably already heard of) were fennel tea, nettle tea and fenugreek (all available from places like Holland & Barrat)

Good plan on the babymoon, I hope you are able to enjoy this time with your baby (jealous mummy emoticon - I would love to do this with ds, but have to manage dd as well!)

Hi TDW, just wanted to post here to add my support You are doing great

Like vlc I am a "tiny acorn" thread graduate - similar story to yours in some ways - 91st centile baby, dropped to 2nd centile and followed it thereafter - much heartache, worry and self-blame ensued.

Anyway, what I wanted to say was: be careful of taking domperidone unless you really need it - TBH, since your LO seems healthy, it doesn't sound to me like you do. It could give you an oversupply which could cause your LO other problems, not to mention putting you at risk of plugged ducts, mastitis etc. And also, it gives you a bit of intestinal hurry, which is NOT convenient if you are often sitting with a LO attached to your breast

fenugreek is a good halfway house - not as potent as domperidone. although it does make you smell of maple syrup!

How's it going TDW, did you have a lovely babymoon for a few days?