Please help. Desperate to BF but so many problems & I can't stop crying.

[LuluLulabelle]

My baby is 3 and a half weeks old. I intended to exclusively BF but after a traumatic birth and on advice of a midwife I let her have a bottle feed at night. My husband would give it to her and let me sleep. In trying to be kind to me and let me sleep he extended it so that she was getting bottles until about 3am. This has affected my milk supply at night and also her latching I think.

I told the midwife that Olivia made clicking noises when she fed and I was worried she wasn't on right. The midwife told me it was just the noise of her drinking but I now know this isn't true and her latch is wrong. She's had 3 weeks of all of this and now she cries from late afternoon through the night because I just don't seem to have the milk for her. DH ends up giving her a bottle and we're back to square one.

I found a breastfeeding counsellor who really helped but has said no more bottles to get my milk back but how I can I see Olivia go hungry?

I can't get her to latch like the counsellor did so we're back to the clicking and she falls asleep before she gets full so gets uspet once I stop. Feeding at night takes hours and I end up crying and just wanting to walk out of the house and be alone (I don't do it).

DH is struggling to look after both of us now and is exhausted and I can't seem to get Olivia to sleep in her moses basket at night now probably because she is hungry.

Is it too late to get this all sorted out? I desperately want to breastfeed exclusvely and feel so guilty that I didn't trust my instincts in the earlier weeks.

Any advice would be very much appreciated because i feel like I am failing at everything.

Lulu xxx

Firstly, I'm sure that it isn't too late.

Secondly, am sure someone more expert than me will be on to help you. I would definitely recommend ringing LLL or NCT breastfeeding helplines.

WRT the evening crying - this can be common in babies regardless of whether they are hungry and how they are fed. I seem to remember 3 weeks as being the time when dd (and ds, though to a lesser extent) both began to go a bit crazy from about 5pm. They would cluster feed like crazy, and dd in particular had colic, so was very very unsettled. Is horrible when it is happening, but not necessarily related to breast feeding/formula feeding.

To maintain and increase your supply it is important to feed as often as possible, including during the night. Skin on skin contact and co-sleeping can help with this. Incidentally, dd loathed with a passion the moses basket. She never, after about 3 weeks, settled in it.

Hope someone can help you.

Have you tried the people at La Leche League? They are apparently great and very supportive...
Also, why not try to express once she is 4 weeks -- you could express when you have more milk (mornings?) then give her bottles of expressed milk if your little one is hungry in the late afternoon?
Good luck and don't worry about despairing/wanting to walk out -- we've all been there...

I think you can fix this. But we'll need more information.

How is her weight gain? How is she, generally?

How much formula are you giving her per day?

Is cosleeping an option? (Are you or your partners smokers, heavy sleepers, drinkers, or taking sleeping meds?)

The breastfeeding counsellor sounds a bit dodgy - is she one you are paying for (those always suck, I don't know why), or is she from one of the four BF groups? (LLL/ABM/BFN/NCT).

hi lulu, im not a bf counsellor or anything, and im sure one will be along soon, but wanted you to know you are not alone. A similar thing happened to me - i dropped the bottles v gradually, whilst letting my ds feed virtually constantly to build up my supply. I also got some fenugreek based tea - think it was called 'mothers milk tea' as its meant to help. It can be done, but you need to get the counsellor back out to you - the latch needs to be sorted out pronto. dont worry about taking up their time or anything (like i did) as they really want to help (im hoping to start training as one soon).

I really hope you can do it - but be kind to yourself xx

oh, and have a look on this website - its really good, full of factual research based info. www.kellymom.com

i think tiktok always recommends phasing out the top ups gradually...

definitely try one of the helplines that has been suggested, esp. if your counsellor was not from one of those.. sometimes you need a second and third opinion..

definitely try co sleeping and use a sling in the day to keep her close to you with quick access to the breast

best of luck !

lulu - sad story, and shame your midwife seemed unable to help you

Perhaps you can contact the counsellor again and tell her what you have written here. Yes, check her credentials, too, but I dont agree she sounds 'dodgy'...we don't know exactly what she said about the bottles and their phasing out, after all!

You need to let us know how much formula she is having, and as NQC says, all the info about her weight.

Clicking is not necessarily a problem - some babies click. However, if it is coupled with poor weight gain, sore nipples, difficult feeding then it can be, as you say, a sign of a poor latch.

There are other reasons (not hunger) why a baby cries and won't fall asleep in a basket alone - babies express a need to feed/cuddle/be close to someone who loves them by crying and being restless. So it could be that simply following this need and responding to it will give you happier times all round.

You are not 'failing' at anything - you are doing your best in a challenging situation, and you had a traumatic birth and a midwife who was unable to support you well afterwards. Not your fault

Just want to reiterate what tickok has said -you aren't failing at all. You sound like a great mum to me. DS1 was a huge fat baby who fed all the time, yet he would still cry for smoetimes semmed like it was for hours at a time (being held or put down didn't change it) and it is really hard to cope with, but it just seemed to stop at a about 10 weeks old and he was then really happy and contented all of the time.

Was just coming to say wait for Tiktok!

It's still very early days and I reckon most of us go through a Oh my god! phase at about 3-4 weeks. (I know I did)

La Leche League were invaluable to me (via email here in Italy, they would get back to me with long supportive emails within 24 hrs of my pleas for help)

Good luck!x (an un-mumsnetty kiss for support!)

In postnatal terms Lulululabelle, three weeks tends to be the long dark night of the soul............ It's so hard isn't it? But you are doing your very best, and so is your DH.

Would reiterate what the others have said about the crying. Your little one wants to be held, that's normal. Babies do often start to cry more in the evenings and be very unsettled at around 2 to 3 weeks too - that's a typical pattern seen with colic (which as far as we know is a developmentally normal things).

You need reassurance that your baby is growing and isn't dehydrated, and hopefully you are getting that at the baby clinic.

You and your DH need to draw on all the support and expertise you can lay your hands on - go to the breastfeeding clinic if you have one, and keep going while you are still struggling.

Please don't feel guilty about what happened in the first days of your baby's life. We have almost all of us been victims of inexpert support with breastfeeding. As a new mum you are very vulnerable, and none of this is your fault.

Since tiktok & the real experts are here, defn no advice from me, but just to add to the notes of support/sympathy - 3 weeks is a tough time, I agree - the sleep deprivation starts to build, and you suddenly feel that things you could cope with in the first few days feel like they are going to go on forever.

Remember it is still very early days - you have lots of time to get things sorted, nothing is lost yet.

And like lots of others, i would agree that both my babies were unsettled (aka bawling bundles of misery) in the late afternoon/early evening - and that refusing to settle in the moses basket isn't nec proof of hunger - dd was fine but ds hated his moses basket.

Have you got a sling? Apart from anything else, I found it so lovely to be able to bung them in and get OUT - a bit of fresh air and time outside the four walls really helped maintain sanity - and the sling meant they were at least pretty likely to just snooze.

Sorry - want to add re: blaming yourself... I know a doctor who was pressured to supplement her first baby in hospital against her will, on the strengths of blood tests showing that his bs were a little on the low side. Now this doctor is a haemotologist and she knew that the junior paed who advised her was not interpreting the blood test results correctly, yet she still gave her baby the formula, because she felt so uncertain of herself in that alien environment, and was so shell-shocked from the birth..... She said at one level she knew she shouldn't be supplementing, but as a brand new mum she just felt so vulnerable in the face of advice from people who are dealing with mothers and newborns all the time.

You've had great advice on here, so just a couple of practical notes from my experience:

• if she's unhappiest at night but more settled in the day, force yourself to sleep when she does in the daytime
• therefore you must ignore all household jobs etc which tell you that they need doing... there will be plenty of time for that later
• the best help your kind DH can give is do the shopping/cooking/washing and leave the baby close to you for feeding/skin-to-skin whenever she's not sleeping.
• get some lansinoh cream... you will need to feed a lot and very often to restore your supply and this is likely to cause some soreness. Use this cream after every feed and your nipples won't suffer quite so much
• another website to check out: www.drjacknewman.com - this has lots of advice and videos of correct latch and fixing the latch, which really helped me when I didn't have a counsellor to actually look at what my baby was doing

Good luck, you will be fine. These first weeks are the hardest and you'll look back later and see how quickly they were over!

CAn't add anything to the excellent advice, but wanted to add my support to you. Agree that the first 3, 4 weeks are hellish! You will get through it - at only 15 weeks PP, those days seem like a distant memory to me (and I posted on here about various worries!)

Sending good vibes to you xx

Hi Lulu

There's some great advice here so I'm not going to add much but I just wanted to give my support too.

The first few weeks of bf (together with everything else that comes with being a new mum) were some of the most difficult I've ever had. There was a lot of joy too but sometimes it was hard to feel it through all the difficult stuff. You're doing your best and that makes you a great Mum. It sounds like you have a supportive partner too. Agreeing together on how to get to where you want to be will be a huge help.

Make sure you get as much rest as you can (v difficult sometimes) and eat as well as you can. If possible getting help with other things helps too - washing, ironing etc. This will help you have the time you need for Olivia and yourself and help improve your milk supply.

I don't know what others here will think about this (and I don't want to confuse the issue when the main thing is to get your supply back up) but one of the things that helped me most for the 3-10 week stage was to express just before the feed was due (e.g. 9:30 for a 10:15 feed) and then go straight to bed and let DH give the expressed milk feed. Even if I then got up 6 times in the night I had just that little bit of extra sleep and my body had a bit more time to make the next feed too. I felt this helped me cope much better with the whole thing and DH loved having that time to himself with DS and to feel he was helping without us compromising our aim to exclusively bf.

Good luck - you will get there, it just takes a while

Thanks everyone for so many posts and being so supportive!

Olivia has fed three times this morning and latched on really well so its night times that seem to be the problem. I don't even feel that tired when I wake to feed her. I even look forward to it because I miss holding her.

I think feeding her sitting in bed makes it harder. I've fed her on the sofa this morning and she's latched on so well with less clicking but I also feel like it was easier because she was a bit more awake and I had more milk.

She weighed 7lb 13oz when she was born and went down to 7lb 9oz when she was 1 week and 3 days and then up to 8lbs at 2 weeks and 3 days. I was worried that this was because she was being fed formula by then though so not a reflection of getting enough breast milk.

Can I build up my supply again? Should I drop the bottles altogether as advised? The counsellor told me to not give her any top up feeds for at least 3 days so that we could address the clicking.

I was expressing but I worry that I will take all the milk and then Olivia won't be able to feed from me and I'll have to give her breastmilk from a bottle which might affect her latch.

It just feels like I am going in circles. I want to do the best for my little girl and I really love feeding her myself I just hope I haven't ruined things by bottle feeding so soon and so much.

I did try calling the NCT helpline this morning but it just rang out and then cut me off. I haven't had a chance to try again.

Thanks again so so much for all your comments and support. Its really made my morning, I never expected such help.

Lulu xx

oh p.s. I forgot to say re the skin-to-skin contact and cuddling her lots: I get lots of negative comments from my mother in law, friends who have babies etc that I shouldn't hold her so much, put her down when she sleeps and if I have her in a sling all day (I did buy one but haven't used it yet) then she'll expect it all the time and I'll "make a rod for my own back".

I can't leave her crying when she's upset and I would love to be able to cuddle her all day but I am told this is wrong. I don't know what to do for best, I am too scared to co-sleep in case I squash her or she's still sleeping with us years from now.

If anyone has experience of this (lots of holding and cuddling & co-sleeping) I'd be very grateful to hear about it.

Lulu xxx

Tiktok, I wasn't having sore nipples with the clicking but I have started getting them now we have changed how she latches on (no help from me, just let her do it herself).

Last night DH gave her 4oz of formula at about 2am after trying to settle her from midnight (I'd fed her upto then). This isn't typical though, she can have upto three bottles but I am not sure how much each time as I am in bed.

She then settled until 5am and then I fed her and she slept until 6.30am.

I have managed to track the breastfeeding consultant down to a clinic this afternoon so I have arranged to see her shortly. I will let you know what she says.

Thanks again.

Lulu xx

lululualbelle Try the NCT line again - no idea why it cut you off, sorry, but like any hi-tech comms service, there are occasional gremlins

Cuddling your baby and responding to her needs in the way you want to do is essential, believe me. There is science behind this You can read BabyCalming by Caroline Deacon or Why Love Matters by Sue Gerhardt if you want to take it further. Being responsive sets a good foundation for sound emotional and mental health, and builds up trust and confidence and love for you, and self-esteem. Your baby needs to learn she matters to you - how else can she communicate her need to be close to you, except by being settled when she is, and unsettled when she isn't!? Babies cared for responsively like this when young cry less when they are a little older, because they have learnt their needs will be met.

Less than a month ago your baby was inside you - you are familiar, comforting and communicative. She needs this.

As for the feeding, expressing does not 'pinch' the milk from your baby - it stimulates production. Frequent removal of milk speeds up milk production. I don't know enough about your individual situation to say whether you need to express or not, or how soon to reduce/get rid of the formula, sorry, but you have not ruined things. Your situation can be retrieved and you can return to full bf.

Hope you get good help and that your confidence returns.

I think you've had excellent advice on here about the feeding but re: cuddling, co-sleeping etc - IGNORE them, just do what feels right to you.

There is a reason we want to snuggle up with our babies all the time - because it is biologically necessary for them and good for milk production.

FWIW I have held and carried DS2 much more than DS1 because when you're rushing around with a toddler it's easier just to stick the new born in a sling and pop a boob out, and now (at 12 weeks) he is currently better at self-settling and sleeping than his brother was.

Good luck...

I'm not expert but...

cuddles are never wrong

put this whole "rod for your back" thing out of your mind. She is a tiny baby and all she needs from you is milk and cuddles. You have enough on your plate sorting out the feeding without worrying about anything else right now. My two boys are toddlers now and my only regret of the early days is that I was often too worried/busy to just sit down and cuddle them all day long. They are tiny for such a short time - make the most of it.

TBH it sounds like you're doing pretty well. She has put on weight and you're making progress with the day time feeds. Personally I found that while my boys were tiny they never fed well in bed. We just never got the angles quite right.

Hope all goes well. enjoy the cuddles.

I cross-posted with tiktok, I meant ignore your in-laws, not ignore tiktok!

Please, please enjoy the cuddles as much as you want - so soon they are strapping toddlers who go "urgh!" when you try to kiss them in the playground!

Lulu, no advice but hopefully a bit of reassurance. I had a traumatic birth experience, was left very anaemic, couldn't cope with the lack of sleep so we gave one bottle of expressed/ formula milk at night at just a little further on. We phased it out when I felt a bit better and now am exclusively breastfeeding.

I remember that horrible three week feeling. I just wanted to run but instead sat on the bedroom floor and bawled my eyes out on several occcasions! It will get better.

Lulululabelle, please please please ignore your MIL/friends etc.... To get some perspective, remember that your DD spent nearly 10 months inside of you UNTIL JUST THREE WEEKS AGO - it would be abnormal IMHO if she did not want to be held/cuddled all the time. Please go with your own instincts, cuddle her as much as you want... I used to spend days on the sofa with DS1 and DS2 with video/DVD boxsets (watched every single episode of Sex and The City ever with DS1). Go to the cinema in the daytime with your DD and just bf. Check out organisations like LLL who run coffee mornings etc - they are great places to meet up with likeminded people and you can get loads of help and advice - my local branch of LLL kept me going in the early days. You are doing so well, please don't let other people's downright crap opinions put you off.

FWIW, I co-sleep and have done so with both mine, never squashed them and tbh, couldnt imagine not cosleeping. You won't squash them and they wont be sleeping with you in 20 years time either. DS1 slept with me for nearly 2 years and then went to his own bed without a murmer.

Sorry for long post, I just hate reading about people who are told not to cuddle their babies as if babies are nasty, manipulastive little creatures whose sole purpose in life is to distract you from going about your prepregnancy business!

Rant over!!

Oh, and ignore the in- laws. I believe the more you cuddle and respond to the babies cries, the more confident they will grow up to be.

If it helps to know as well, my baby's most unsettled period was in the early hours too. They do grow out of it.

no advice here on bf, only to say you have done so well to get this far.

With regards to the "rod for your own back" comments. IGNORE THEM. Cuddle your baby and enjoy this really, really special time. You don't get it back and before you know it your baby will be a rampaging toddler who barely has time for a cuddle.

Honestly, she was part of you a few short weeks ago. She needs you so just follow your instincts. You won't make a rod for your own back, you will be giving your baby the security and love she needs.

Nothing to do with BF I know.