Anyone else prepared to admit that they didn't b/f just because they didn't want to ??

[IllegallyBrunette]

Just wondered really.

I have 3 dc and didn't breast feed any. I was 19 when I had dd1 and was asked by a midwife if i'd be breastfeeding and I said no. There was no argument or discussion, that was that.

When I had dd2 at 34 weeks she had to be tube fed. I offered to express milk for her but was told i needn't bother.

With ds, again I didn't want to but even if I had it would have been hard as he was supposed to be on phototherapy 24/7 for a week.

I think the attitude towards ff mums on this forum by some bf mums is disgusting. I would never dream of saying anything against any mum for feeding her baby by whichever way she chooses, yet some of the comments on here like 'formula should only be available if there is a proven medical need' are just awful.

penthesileia I think you are right. The reason I am so defensive is because I wanted so much to BF and in the end I couldn't, so when I see people making comments about FF as a whole (which, by the way, is the reason i joined the thread) I do get defensive and angered, not at the research, but at the attitudes of some BF mothers, who cannot see that the comments they make can be very upsetting and not helpful at all. (again, not all comments, i can see that some would be helpful to a mother struggling to BF)

(OYM, it was you in the post at Wed 07-Jan-09 22:03:23)

You'll have read enough of my posts to know that I agree, no one should look down on others because of how they fed their babies - this is not controversial.

Without wanting to be provocative in response to your last post, oym - I don't think any bf-ing mother has said they are a better mother for bf-ing. Perhaps you interpret their defence of their choice as saying this, but no-one has, in reality (I think - haven't read back through thread [lazy emoticon]).

Penisthelia??? Tiktok - how very dare you!

And I was so slow in typing, obv. I meant your penultimate post, oym.

Definitely regrettable that people should walk away from a thread feeling bad.

And agree that people should try to phrase their comments in ways that don't appear to be judgements about other people's choices (although the problem is, a choice is a judgement - your judgement about how best to do something [for you, admittedly]). (I'm using the general, rather than personal you there).

That is (in some ways) precisely the existential humanist crisis: the choices I make do have an impact on others.

Sorry about name spell errors, Penthi...er, Pensthi....er, Penny......

Penthesileia: you're very right about your description of how these threads become minefields! It is such an emotional subject... (as many others that have to do with parenting)

Oneyummymummy: sorry, I still am not sure what exactly your point is. But what I do get from what you're saying- and I agree if that's what you're saying- is that bf mothers should not be smug about their choice nor should they think they're automatically better mothers because of making this choice. Definitely agree on this.

However- and here's another aspect to the 'minefield' this whole area is, adding to Penthesileias' description. As I've said before, I'm bf my 5 month old boy. I have 2-3 friends who have been ff from birth (for various reasons, either through choice or necessity). I've found myself, in conversations with one of them, almost feeling embarrassed to admit that yes, I'm STILL bf, when she asks me (with a particular tone of voice' "are you STILL bf-ing'? I also find that, even though I don't agree with her, I tend to go along with her descriptions of formula milk as exactly equal if not better to breastmilk (she believes, wrongly, that a mother who doesn't take loads of vitamins & extremely nutritious food will have poorer breastmilk than formula). I find that it's very hard to defend my choice to struggle on breastfeeding to friends who have made a different choice, so I just leave it at that. So here's a question, to add to the whole muddled issue. How can I defend my choice & feel comfortable that for me it's been the right choice, without being smug & 'rubbing it in the face' of others who have made different choices & have reached different conclusions about what the right food is for their children? It's hard because by agreeing with my friend (which I've done) that formula & breastmilk are nowadays equal, am I not being dishonest, since I don't really believe that? How can there be a good way to say, 'I believe breastmilk is best for my baby, but I respect that first, not everyone believes that, and second, that formula is a perfectly good & healthy alternative'?

Anyway. Not sure this makes any sense. Just wanted to show really that breastfeeding mothers (especially in the real world) also get a lot of criticism of their choice. If I had a penny for every time someone told me my milk is probably 'not thick enough' & I should give my baby formula top-ups I would be a rich woman (by the way, I do give my baby one bottle of formula every night at 11, have started this 3 weeks ago & it's working well).

I understand that most Bf mothers on this thread are just pointing out the befefits of whta they 'choose' for thier DC and fully take on board all of the (helpful) information and research in fact this is exactly WHY i chose to BF my DD unfortunatly that 'choice' was taken out of my hands. And equally and just trying to 'inform' and help BF mothers that sometimes comments they might make are not 'helpful' and 'informative' and are just thier own personal preferance and choice.

I anly ever wanted what was best for my DD, I gave up smoking the day I found out I was PG and never drunk (although some research suggests this is ok in moderation) throughout my PGcy and wanted to BF. Hwever just because I had to FF my DD it doesn't mean that she is automatically going to be ill and obeise (again I know not the majority of people have said this) .

I am only trying to help those mothers who feel that they are 'helping' that infact some of their comments do not help. I am aware that a lot of these comments were aimed at the OP who CHOSE not to BF for no reason, but in doing so they have gone on to offend those of us who HAD to FF. Not just offend but (personally) it has made me feel like my child hasn't had the best start in life and if becomes ill would be my fault.

I'm sure I havnt worded that properly, but hope that people can understand where I am coming from. In the same way that you want to inform other mothers about BF, I just want to inform peole about the impact some comments could have (even on a mother who is stuggling to BF) and this is not aimed at all the BF mothers on this thread.

See, that's the thing. I fear that Maria's experience in RL is more common than what goes on on MN.

Oneyummymummy, no of COURSE your DD will not be obese or ill or whatever. The risks of formula compared to breastmilk are tiny! I really wouldn't worry about it if I were you. I think (and this may be controversial) than the risks are a bit overrated to be honest. When people say 'risks' they should add that we're talking about tiny tiny risks on an individual level.

Penthesileia, you're probably right, what we read on MN is not at all indicative of attitudes in real life, I feel. Anyway, better go. My baby just woke from his nap!

maria just as FF mothers shouldn't feel 'embarrased' (not sure if this is the right word) to admit what they are doing nor should you. If it were me (as your friend) I wouldn't feel as though you wre 'rubbing it in my face' if you chose to BF. Maybe just explain that this is what you feel is best for YOUR child, I.e "well he still enjoys it, and I still enjoy it, he doesn't need anything else, why change this if it is working for us" type comment. This way she will understand that you and your baby are doing what is best for YOU BOTH and not feel like you are saying this is the best thing for ANY baby. Personally I know a lot of mothers who BF in RL and I have never felt although they make me feel anything other than happy for them in the coice they made and equally they do the same for me. I think if your friend has a problem with a comment like this she may feel 'envious' of you BF when maybe she couldn't.

Problem is, oym, fewer people in RL are embarrassed to put a bottle in a baby's mouth than they are to put a boob in a baby's mouth, or - more pertinently - to see either of those scenarios.

Thus, when someone asks someone bf-ing their child, "Are you still bf-ing him/her", the implication the bf-er hears is that this is wrong, and possibly for socially 'embarrassing' reasons, namely that we - society as a whole - have a problem with boobs in infants' mouths.

Thus the bf-ing mum feels undermined in her practice.

OYM ""Formula may be 'on size fits all' but lets not forget that we KNOW what is in formula. A mother breast feeding her baby could consume any thing...alcohol, drugs or simply a very unhealthy diet....now is that 'better' for a child? I know this goes off the subject a little and we are not talking about mothers who are doing these things but by saying that FF is one size fits all is just a random comment that has the same meaning as if saying that a mother BF couldn't feed her child the 'wrong' thing!""

RSB ""In addition, I'm not sure how citing alcoholic and drug-taking mothers is relevant in the vast majority of cases. If a mother decides to injest dangerous substances then she shouldn't breastfeed and put her baby at risk. But it's a tiny minority of women that would even do that.""

tiktok ""Well....in fact, if a mother is a drug abuser in pregnancy, she will be encouraged to breastfeed or at least supply breastmilk for her newborn, as this reduces the often painful withdrawal symptoms for the baby. Obviously she would be encouraged to come off drugs as long term ingestion of drugs via breastmilk is not safe.""

I simply asked a question I didn't say it was good or bad, the comments that followed were the conflicting comments.

Again I want to point out that I am just trying to make people understand what kind of effect that comments can have on others, just like this comment has had an effect on you.

Not not not not not saying that anyone should be embarrassed to put a bottle in a baby's mouth, by the way.

Phew.

When I have been told (as a bf mother) that 'well, formula is so good these days, isn't it, and just about the same as breastmilk' or 'are you still breasteeding? ....blimey!' or 'I don't know why you bother, really' or 'well, I think it's great for the first x weeks, but after......, well.....' and similar comments, by people who are or who have been formula feeders who are denigrating my choice in order to reassure themselves (and that is all it is - how could comments like those ones be of benefit to a breastfeeding mother?) I have sometimes remained silent to keep the peace, but not always.

Maria, you don't have to say nothing. You can say things like 'when you say that, it makes me feel uncomfortable...I don't agree that breastfeeding is not worthwhile, sorry...can we talk about something else?'

From my observations in RL and reading mumsnet, small underminings of bf like the ones you describe are very, very common. Major underminings are less common, but they exist. I have heard from mothers whose families have threatened them with being disowned if they continue to breastfeed (honestly), from mothers who breastfeed in secret because the people around them are so opposed to it, whose partners are nasty, jealous and belittling about them breastfeeding.

I cant think similar opposition happens to formula feeders very often (I have heard of formula feeders using a bottle in secret, but it's more because of embarrassment and shyness in front of breastfeeders, not because of active opposition).

penthesileia as i say I havn't personally BF my DD so can't completely understand what comment may be made. But understand that a comment like 'still' could imply that a mother should have stopped by that point. Personally I don't feel the need to comment on any of my friends choices (I will however offer advise if it is needed) , I just feel it is their choice to make, and it doesn't really make me feel anything. BF mums should feel proud, just as FF mums should if they know they are doing what is best for thier baby in the circumstances given.

penthesileia as i say I havn't personally BF my DD so can't completely understand what comment may be made. But understand that a comment like 'still' could imply that a mother should have stopped by that point. Personally I don't feel the need to comment on any of my friends choices (I will however offer advise if it is needed) , I just feel it is their choice to make, and it doesn't really make me feel anything. BF mums should feel proud, just as FF mums should if they know they are doing what is best for thier baby in the circumstances given.

Yey my first double post

They should feel proud; but as you have said about your feelings on this thread - a thread by faceless strangers on the net - you feel upset and undermined by thoughtless remarks about FF. How much more denigrating would be it for a BF-er to face the kind of RL opposition, big or small, that tiktok describes? I'm lucky that no-one has said anything to me in RL, but I bet I'll respond terribly if someone does.

I think we have all come to some sort if agreement {hopeful emotion} That mothers are very protective of thier own choices and opinions and sometimes don't take time to consider other peoples circumstances and preferences. In doing so, FF AND BF mothers can sometimes cause offense/undermine or upset other mothers for not making the smae choices.

Im sorry, my spelling is just terrible today!

Good to read this - I was pilloried on my first outing on MN for saying I had read negative stuff about ff - a bunch of the bf gurus leapt on me to deny it and one (whom I believe helps a lot of people but is clearly a control freak) told me if I disagreed I should hide the thread. I tried bf - with varying degrees of success but out of duty. Even when it worked well for the baby and was comfortable for me I found it so incredibly tedious I couldn't wait to stop. I would bf again for health of the baby but really don't find anything to enjoy about it at all.

Don't get me wrong I have had comments in RL about FF too, just not from 'friends'. It is horrible that someone can make such thoughtless comments that can make you feel very protective and upset.

OYM, you are deluding yourself, sorry - we don't know exactly what is in formula, unless you know the exact composition of the grass, cattle feed, drugs, oils and so on. It does not matter, most of the time. Safety checks mean contaminated formula is withdrawn before being put on sale, most of the time. It's only once a year or so that a batch has to be announced as harmful after it's reached the retail stage. In a country like ours with food regulations, parents can be confident that the production of any formula they use will have bee subject to tests for purity and so on. This does not mean there is no contamination risk, but careful preparation reduces this to a minimum.

We don't need to know what is in breastmilk, either. There are, if you need them, lists of constituents in the literature, but breastmilk changes with the needs of the baby, so individual milk is different at any one time - this is a good thing!

You;re presenting the knowledge of ingredients as some sort of spurious advantage of formula milk - it really is not.