Anyone else prepared to admit that they didn't b/f just because they didn't want to ??

[IllegallyBrunette]

Just wondered really.

I have 3 dc and didn't breast feed any. I was 19 when I had dd1 and was asked by a midwife if i'd be breastfeeding and I said no. There was no argument or discussion, that was that.

When I had dd2 at 34 weeks she had to be tube fed. I offered to express milk for her but was told i needn't bother.

With ds, again I didn't want to but even if I had it would have been hard as he was supposed to be on phototherapy 24/7 for a week.

I think the attitude towards ff mums on this forum by some bf mums is disgusting. I would never dream of saying anything against any mum for feeding her baby by whichever way she chooses, yet some of the comments on here like 'formula should only be available if there is a proven medical need' are just awful.

Fairlady - I'm pleased to hear your exp. as I've been wondering if the dreaded thrush will re-appear as candida stays with you. In my case I think antibiotics had a lot to answer for. Fingers crossed!

yeah, best of luck to you

This has been a really interesting thread and I've kept out of it until now largely because deep down I still feel ashamed of the fact that I didn't manage to bf. Throughout my pg I was determined to and just assumed that I would be able to - the most natural thing in the world etc then my dds were born early, didn't get to hold them for 24 hours, let alone have skin to skin or be able to try feeding them. Was still determined but they were being tube fed by the time we were reunited. I expressed for them whilst they were in SCBU - once I was eventually shown how to express and given access to a breast pump - was still in hopsital myself at this point. I managed a couple of feeds thanks to a lovely SCBU nurse (whose job was to look after babies and not mummies but she was fab). Once I got my DDs home I managed some successful bf with dd2 which was wonderful but dd1 just could not latch (poss cos of later diagnosed gastric reflux?) and every attempted feed became an awful, terrible traumatic time for both of us. I did try to get help at drop in clinic at hosp but just getting there with both babies was difficult enough in itself, then it was unbelievably overcrowded, babies started screaming, etc etc. I ended up expressing for dd1 and feeding dd2 with some ff in between for 8 weeks. At that point I was put on antibiotics for an infection caused by cs which my dr (erroneously it turned out) said couldn't be used whilst feeding - she suggested I expressed and threw out my milk for a wk if I was 'really all that bothered' about continuing. At that point I gave up. Sorry this has turned into a long pity fest and also that I am still desperately trying to justify my choice to give up. There is a point though - as someone who failed to bf I always feel as if bfing IS pushed through the media, health services etc and I have often been made to feel like a bad mother (by myself a lot, I admit) for not breastfeeding. I actually felt ashamed bottle feeding my dds in public!I know this is because I feel defensive and I know bfeeding is better for babies and therefore of course the campaign can't be stopped just in case it hurts people's feelings. However whilst the message that breast is best is very much there it seems that, in my experience at least, there is nowhere near enough support there to back it up. I still maintain that it is a woman's choice as to how she feeds her child and that we should not judge. I also agree with plenty of the other posters that there are far more complex factors at play than just feeding that shape a child and his/ her health, IQ, behaviour etc, etc. I resent the implication (not made on this thread before everyone jumps on me) that my children will suffer poor health/ be obese because of how I fed them as babies...

This is interesting - don't jump on me though

twinmam

For what its worth, it sounds like you made an enourmous effort to breastfeed, and reading your post I can see why you moved to formula feeding.
Obviously you dont need to be judged by anyone (least of all some annonymous internet stranger ) but just though I would let you know that your post doesnt read like that of someone who should be feeling ashamed.

Is hard not to feel ashamed though. Me and DD were rubbish at bf and I got some really bad advice and had no support from professional or family and so stopped, and I still feel sad and ashamed sometimes

Thanks 27. Ellie, I know what you mean. I definitely mostly feel more sad than ashamed about it now - like I've been cheated out of what should have been a really natural and lovely experience. Likewise about having a c section rather than the lovely home birth I'd envisaged (before I found out it was twins, LOL!)We can put lots of pressure on ourselves as mothers, I think, especially in our thoughts about motherhood before we actually get there! I have found myself feeling q resentful/ envious of successful breastfeeders at times I feel very very strongly that there needs to be a LOT more support available. I am determined to bf my next child and will shout to get the help I need (or pay for it).

And that is the sad thing...all those let down mothers....mothers that wanted to bf and were let down by the system, the community, the society, etc....

"I agree about bf by the way, about it's health benefits etc. I think if there were two worlds where one every child was bf and where one every child was ff and everyone lived exactly the same life styles, the people in the bf world would be undenialbly healthier. But we don't live in two seperate worlds, we live in one, where parents individuel life style choices are all factors in their children long term health throughout their childhoods, not just in the first six months of life.
"

But you could say the same about smoking. And yet there isn't this attitude of oh well we can't control every other single factor so let's not even bother.
Can someone PLEASE explain to me why people are prepared to accept the link between smoking and ill health but not ff and ill health?? Please!

"I Bfead all mine but have absolutely no problem with anyone choosing not to"

I have a problem with babies not being breastfed.

I can't help feeling sorry for a baby who isn't getting their mother's milk.

You can start from that position and still feel very sympathetic towards women who choose not to breastfeed, at least you can if you take on board that there are huge cultural and social pressures in this country which ensure that artificial feeding stays the norm for all but the smallest babies.

'I have a problem with babies not being breastfed.

I can't help feeling sorry for a baby who isn't getting their mother's milk.'

TBB are you serious?! What on Earth has it to do with you how an unknown baby is fed? As I have stated, my dc were FF. I don't want ANYONE feeling sorry for them. Why would they need your pity when they are so loved and cared for in every way?

Gosh, that comment has actually made me feel quite upset.

Sorry maikemingeagecko. It was inevitable that was going to sound judgmental. I can still put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't want to breastfeed. I know that it's something that many people struggle with emotionally and I wouldn't want to imply that those feelings aren't important, or that people who choose not to breastfeed don't love their babies just as much as breastfeeding mums. They just see the issue differently.

I still feel though that if we try to see the choice from a baby's perspective the whole issue looks very different. I think that if you try to understand how the actual experience of breastfeeding is for a baby - how different breastfeeding is from artificial feeding..... Babies love to breastfeed; it's the central experience of early babyhood. It's what they're primed to do (even if some of them find it difficult initially). They're designed for breastfeeding - the shape of their mouths and noses, their instinctive rooting behaviour, their pleasure in being held skin to skin, their active participation in the feed, which is very different from how they bottlefeed.

I think you have to know quite a lot about the subtleties of breastfeeding to understand this, which of course you're unlikely to do if you have chosen to bottlefeed. I'm thinking that maybe physiologically normal instinctive newborn feeding behaviours (ie, those involved in breastfeeding) and physiology should be part of the biology and PSHE curriculum at school. Might help change people's perspective on this issue in a way which is beneficial for babies generally.

well you know though, tittybangbang, you can NEVER really see things from a baby's perspective! What you're doing is making adult choices/ judgments (perfectly valid ones by the way, but not the same for everyone) & naming them 'looking at things from a baby's perspectives'. You know though what, babies can never be seen as separate from their families & particularly their mothers. So there's no such thing as a 'baby's perspective' on its own. Winnicott has written a lot about this idea that there 'is no baby without a mother'. Also, I'm absolutely sure that babies who are formula fed also love to feed, it's just a different way of doing so. Before you jump on me, I too prefer breastfeeding for my boy, but for god's sake, I believe that's my choice to make, as his mother, NOT my baby's choice. We live in a very complex modern culture with many choices on all sorts of levels, & returning to a sort of 'natural, physiologically correct' state of things is a slippery slope. How about the food we eat as adults? the cars we drive? the clothes we wear? the medicines we take? None of these is strictly 'physiologically correct' but still we do all these things. Anyway. I was just trying to say that it's particularly hurtful to say you're looking at things from a 'baby's perspective' (disregarding the baby's mother) & feeling sorry for the baby. Babies don't need your pity, thank you very much, they thrive in all sorts of circumstances. Perhaps instead of pitying babies, the crucial thing is to support mothers who do want to breastfeed (since it's far harder to establish breastfeeding than it is to establish bottle feeding, so lots & lots of help is needed).

After reading twinmam's post my overriding feeling about breasfeeding my dd is that I am so so lucky. Establishing bfeeding is one of the hardest things I have ever done. My partner, mum (who bf 6 babies) and doctor all at some point asked me to stop trying because I had worn myself out trying.

I live in a fairly deprived area and there is a lot of money pumped into supporting families and babies. I had a wonderful midwife who used her personal time to help me establish bf (came to my house and sat with me for hours). Plus the infant feeding team at my local hospital gave me wonderful ongoing support fir the first 3 months. Without the support I had I would not be bfing.

It is definitely about support and knowledge. I had no idea about cluster feeding or growth spurts and as a consequence had no faith in my supply. It would be wonderful to see the mechanics of bfing taught in schools but at the very least it should be taught in antenatal classes ( a half hour video that repeatedly shows you how to latch in the baby "nose to nipple" and nothing else was no help).

Twinmams please don't feel guilty or ashamed you sound like you get it everything you've got and you are a very caring mum.

Twinmams

please don't feel guilty or ashamed you sound like you gave it everything you've got and you are a very caring mum.

Sorry Maria but I'm not talking about making adult choices and judgements. I'm talking about the physiological reality of breastfeeding, which is different for babies than the physiological experience of bottlefeeding. The milk is different. The milk tastes and smells different. The way it's delivered is different. The dynamic between the milk giver and the milk receiver is different. Why are we only ever encouraged to think about the experience of breastfeeding from an adult point of view? We don't do this in relation to any of the other choices we make which involve our children as much as they do ourselves. We ask ourselves: "What will it be like for them?" Why don't we do this in relation to infant feeding? We use our imaginations and our love for our baby to try to empathise with them, and to varying degrees we succeed. Why are we not encouraged to do this in relation to feeding?

And I didn't say it was a baby's choice alone - I just said that a baby's perspective ought to be considered, and at the moment I don't think it really is - not seriously - only as an afterthought and in relation to the health issues ('and breastfeeding is healthiest for babies'). I definitely don't think women are ever encouraged to think about the lived experience of breastfeeding from the baby's point of view.

And it's not fair to compare the choices as to how we nurture our babies to other issues such as transport or medicine. I remember reading a comment that the change to the artificial feeding of babies is the single fastest and most radical change in the history of human nutrition, and the recipients of this change have not consented to it, or, (overwhelmingly) benefitted from it. I also think it's worth pointing out that this radical change has been largely driven by commercial interests.

In any case, your comparison of the change in infant feeding with other things like medicine and transport really don't make sense. Driving a car doesn't render your legs redundant. Taking medicine doesn't render your immune system redundant. Bottlefeeding does make your ability to lactate (and lactation is part of the normal biology of maternity) redundant. In other words, it doesn't complement human physiology or support it, it renders it redundant! It also deprives babies of their earliest experience of biologically normal nutrition, which involves fresh food with a variety of tastes and odours, and replaces it wholesale with a bland, manufactured, inferior substitute.

BTW - your comment about the need to support women with bf..... Does anythign I say imply that this is not important? But you can argue for the needs of babies to be considered more without it being taken as read that women's needs as mothers should be neglected surely?

And sorry - but as long as there's evidence that babies are disadvantaged (sometimes quite seriously) in health and developmental terms by being deprived of their mothers milk , then I'll continue to pity them.

Wow - I feel even shitter than i did before....

Should I give my children away to someone who can mother them as they were meant to be - I have clearly failed - too late for them - and may as well give up. FFS.

twinmam, your response is a good example of the dilemma of support for breastfeeding. Everything titty says is of course correct - but saying it, even on a thread which invites discussion (rather than help with a specific problem) risks stirring up anger and resentment.

No one would suggest for one moment that you are not the perfect mother for your kids! Discussing the physiological appropriateness of breastfeeding does not affect this fact in any way whatsoever - but because infant feeding is such an emotional and personal phenomenon, discussion of it (again, even in a place designed for exactly that - discussion) risks the sort of response you have made.

I don't think titty's post made you feel shit, BTW. My guess is that you still have the feelings of anger and sadness and shame you describe about your experience (totally unjustified - your circumstances were beyond your control, it's crystal clear) and when someone gives voice to why bf and ff are different, your feelings are heightened.

But it's not fair for the discussion to be limited for this reason, is it?

Maria, it's a travesty to use Winnicott's work (and all the other stuff on infant attachment) to say that we can only discuss breastfeeding as a mother-infant experience! Winnicott (and other major names in the field) did indeed look at experience from the baby's point of view, and why should we not when it comes to infant feeding?

Obviously, the infant side of the experience is not the whole story: there is i) his/her experience ii) the mother's experience, and there is iii) their shared experience. I would add the cultural and social experience of the wider world to this, too, that is, what how our society experiences breastfeeding.

Of course the baby who is not breastfed misses an important and possibly formative experience. That's not to say formula feeding babies cannot have some of this replicated in some ways - of course they can.

But think of it this way: we recognise the fact that (say) a baby born very pre-term who spends the last months of pregnancy in a SCBU (rather than his mum's uterus) is experiencing something very different from the physiological norm. We treat the very pre-term baby gently, we try to think of what things feel like for him, so we speak to him softly and quietly, and we use touch and close human contact ('kangaroo care') to try to replicate the environment he should be in. It is not critical or judgemental of mothers of pre-term babies to say any of this - it's just a fact that SCBU care is not the same as 'in uterus' care

I feel the same way about mothers who wanted to breastfeed and who did not - I feel the same about the mothers who didn't want to breastfeed, too. They miss something, and their babies miss something. I don't judge the reasons for it, but it seems foolish to me to ignore or deny that the experiences of bf and ff are different.

Tiktok, of course it shouldn't stop discussion. My reaction was one of defensiveness, absolutely - which is how I often feel about the whole bf thing(along with ashamed and sad) and I apologise for that. However, I do resent the implication that my dc's health - and their relationship with me - is somehow forever doomed because I failed in this most natural of motherly tasks. I'm not saying you've implied that - or that anyone else here has - but I do often feel that way. I don't think that people shouldn't discuss this in case it upsets anyone. There are, however, a LOT more factors at work in the health and upbringing of children than how they are fed as babies. I accept that successful breastfeeding is better for mums and babies and would have loved to have had this experience with my dds. I still intend to try and bf any subsequent children we have. I'm not asking anyone to lie to me just to make me feel better. However, I do think that a more balanced approach could sometimes be taken. I think the benefits of bf are well known about - the main issue, I still feel, is the lack of a support structure to help women actually do it. Out of my NCT group we all intended to bf our dcs and were all well aware of the benefits and yet only 2 (out of 8) managed to do it. It's bloody hard to bf successfully and I think rather than the government plastering hospital walls with posters about breast is best it's about time a serious investment was made in actually ensuring that women who want to bf are able to. Btw my babies were prem SCBU babies too - they really are in trouble . Next thing you'll be telling me c secs are bad...

You are still being unfair, twinmam. I would never say, nor do I think, that c-secs are 'bad'. I made it pretty clear what I meant about babies in SCBU - you surely agree that SCBU is an essential life saver but it is not a good start for babies, and no one would actively want their babies to spend time there....but because that is recognised, good practice is to take time and care to minimise the effect of not being in the womb still.

If you feel ashamed, sad and defensive about breastfeeding, then of course that's a horrid feeling but it is not my fault or anyone else's who describes the reality of infant feeding.

I will be sensitive to anyone's feelings, and I won't judge anyone, but I honestly don't know what you mean by a 'more balanced approach'. The benefits of breastfeeding are not well-known by mothers or the rest of society, believe me - there is research on this. Many people believe breastmilk and formula are more or less the same, few people know what formula actually is, and among those that do know there is a difference, they do not know in what way it makes a difference, if you know what I mean. The 'balance' is all the other way - towards formula feeding.

You are right about the lack of a support structure, and this should have far more attention paid to it, I agree 100 per cent. If that's what you mean about 'balance' - that more effort and money be put into actually making bf possible - then I am with you

Tiktok: As usual, all that you write is interesting & provocative, so lets discuss further. In a way, you're converting the already converted, since I'm very much a bf-ing advocate myself, and have struggled- with varying success, but enough to keep going- in order to still be bf-ing my son at 5 months. I plan to continue as much as I'm able, and even the thought of stopping makes me very sad. I also have used good advice & help at time from bf-ing counsellors (either in person or on the phone) so I definitely agree with everyone saying there is definitely a need for much wider support for those who want to bf.

HOWEVER. However we may not like it- formula feeding is a perfectly accepted & widespread alternative to bf. That's A FACT. I would agree that tackling the wider, cultural (and economical) reasons of why formula feeding is so widespread is important. I'm sure that financial reasons (having to do with formula manufacturers) are an important factor. The sexualization of breasts & the issues of disgust around the female body are also factors to take into consideration.There are other reasons, however, that ff is so widespread, some of them not negative at all. You can't deny that for many mothers ff is seen as an easier, accessible option, a healthy-enough option (maybe not perfect, but not everyone is striving for perfect). I'm not saying I see it exactly this way- I'm saying that I know for a fact- and you do too- that many people do see it this way, & thus choose to ff.

Let me put it another way. Maybe my examples about driving cars etc were unsuccessful. But lets think of vegetarianism or even veganism. We all know people who passionately believe- and can present lots of arguments about this- that vegetarianism is a preferable, healthier, more 'natural' way to feed oneself & one's children. They might even be right- they probably are actually-, but I still don't think of the issue twice, & eat my burgers with relish. I would feel quite offended actually if they 'pushed' their choice (their cause, more correctly) onto me, or if they said they felt sorry for my children for not being brought up vegatarian. Maybe it's unfair to be discussing all this with you Tiktok, since in everything you've ever written on the subject, it's always very clear to me you genuinely respect women & their individual choices, it's just societal improvements on bf-ing that you're pushing for (and I'm totally with you on that). It's just that many many mumsnetters do make individual formula feeding mums feels bad, which is why such discussions get heated. And making them feel bad is not always done in a gentle, 'lets talk about bf-ing even if it gets a bit difficult' way. It often is done quite aggressively, in an attacking way (which I'm sure you'd condemn).

As for the stuff you say about Winnicott. First of all, as an aside, Winnicott does not belong to attachment theory. Second (and following from that) I would argue that no, he never does separate the child from the mother, not really. The mother-infant dyad is what it's ALL about. In any case, that's my reading of Winnicott. More generally, I fail to understand what we mean by saying 'looking at it from a baby's perspective'. That is simply not possible. As TityBangBang said, we emphazise, we imagine, we think about what it might be like to be a baby. We try to do that... but we can never, ultimately, see things from a baby's perspective, it's always an adult viewpoint (or imagination, or empathy, or whatever) imposed on a baby. One could even argue, playing the devil's advocate, that in certain cases a mother may be thinking she's emphasizing with her baby when giving him bottles, since bottles are easier for the baby to take, & he/she is satisfied quicker, & doesn't have to struggle to feed (and lets not deny it, sometimes bf can involve a bit of fussiness or struggling for the baby). Not saying that's my own particular way of looking at my baby's experience, but that argument could be made (among others) by bottlefeeding mothers.

Finally. No-one is denying that bf & ff are different. Well of course they are, different in many ways. I too tend to believe that bf-ing my boy is adding something to his health & experience, as it's adding to my own health & experience. However, like it or not, many don't see things this way (see again my vegetarianism example).

Finally, your example of SCBU is a bit far fetched, I think. I really don't see formula feeding as any way similar to babies being in the SCBU, in which case they are in danger even for their lives sometimes. Perhaps though you were trying to make a point about the differences of 2 experiences & our imaginations of what it's like for the babies...

Maria: thanks for your acknowledgement of my tact and non-judgyness You are quite right.

Winnicott, while not in the attachment camp, you are right (he died a bit too soon for full membership of it), can certainly be 'lumped in' with the attachment theorists as he was and remains influential in this field. He does acknowledge infant experience - I can't think why you would not get this from his writing. There's a very nice little book called 'Babies and Their Mothers' which is a collection of articles and lectures. In chapter 3, he says 'there is no doubt that a vast number of individuals....have been brought up satisfactorily without having had the experience of breastfeeding. This means there are other ways by which an infant may experience physical intimacy with the mother. Nevertheless, I myself would always be sorry if breastfeeding fails in any one case, simply because I believe that the mother or the baby or both are losing something if they lose this experience.'

I won't comment on your stuff about ff being accepted etc and why people choose. I know all this and you know I know

Do you mean that sometimes the mother who uses bottles thinks she is 'epathising' with her baby (not emphasising!!)? I agree - this is a common experience. Mothers believe, sometimes rightly, that the baby prefers the bottle. It's part of the job of breastfeeding support to make bf a positive experience for both mother and baby - the baby only prefers the bottle if the breast has not been rewarding, and sometimes it isn't.

Of course my example of SCBU was meant as a way of looking at the experience for the baby, and I wasn't really considering the physiology of it. That's the main link between SCBU and formula feeding - it's something that happens to the baby which physiologcally, he doesn't 'expect'.

epathising = empathising