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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

i can't go on with breast feeding, it's been 16 WEEKS now and there's still no click and she's STILL TINY

122 replies

Aitch · 20/12/2008 22:59

i saw a wee three week old baby the other day, just feeding and feeding. no clawing, no grabbing at the breast and yanking it out of her mouth, no unlatching, just chomp chomp om nom nom thanks mum. and it made me cry.

so i think i might have to jack it in.

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Aitch · 21/12/2008 14:09

my number one priority is that she actually FEEDS, lol. she really isn't doiing. northernlurker linked to a jack newman page further down and it's exactly dd2. (actually dd2's worse...) the problem is that i'm already familiar with newman's advice on how to increase milk and am pretty much doing it all. i pumped last night after giving her formula, she had a couple of fairly okay feeds this morning but now she's back to just refusing to stay on and so i've given her what i'd expressed last night. i just don't get full breasts, ever. it's deffo my supply. i reek of fenugreek, probably giving myself breast cancer with all the domperidone... blah blah blah. basically i can't see how we can recover from this. i could keep going if i knew she was feeding, but we're in a worse place than we were a week ago. oh poo.

"10. Sometimes the milk supply decreases, particularly around 3 months for no obvious reason. It is likely, though, that you will find the reason in the next paragraph.

One more reason requires more explanation. In the first few weeks, babies tend to fall asleep at the breast when the flow of milk is slow (this slowing of the flow occurs more rapidly if the baby is not well latched on, since the baby depends on the mother?s ?letdown? or milk ejection reflex to get milk). The baby will suck and sleep and suck, without getting large quantities at this point, but the mother may have a letdown reflex (milk ejection reflex) from time to time and the baby will drink more. When the mother's supply is abundant, the baby usually gains fine, though he may spend long periods on the breast despite the mother's abundant supply. However, by the time babies are six or eight weeks of age, younger sometimes, many will start to pull away from the breast when the flow slows down, often within a few minutes of starting to nurse. This is more likely to occur in babies who received bottles early on, but can occur even without the baby?s having received bottles. The mother will then likely put the baby to the other side, but then the baby will do the same thing. He may be hungry still, and may refuse the breast, preferring to suck his hand. He won't get those extra letdowns that give him a few extra gushes of milk that he would have had if he had stayed on the breast. So he drinks less, and the supply also decreases because he drinks less, and the flow slows even earlier in the feeding (because there is less milk) and you see what may happen. It doesn't always happen this way, and many babies may gain even if they do spend only a short period of time on the breast. They may still pull off and suck their hands because they want more sucking but if their weight gain is good, there is no need for concern.

The way to prevent this is to get a good latch from the very first. However, many mothers are being told the latch is good even if it isn't. A better latch can help, sometimes even at a later date. Using compression will often keep a baby drinking (see Handout B: Protocol to Increase Breastmilk Intake by the Baby).

Sometimes domperidone will increase the milk supply significantly. Do not use it if you are pregnant, however (Handout 19a: Domperidone-1 and Handout 19b: Domperidone-2). "

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Aitch · 21/12/2008 14:10

foxy it may well be but if she's literally not having more than a few sucks on my breasts per feed it may be a developmental thing too far, iykwim, cos my supply can't handle it.

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vlc · 21/12/2008 17:11

Aitch - she IS feeding. She is taking enough milk from you (albeit in short, fussy, upsetting feeds) to gain weight very respectably. Please see that! And that paragraph on supply - I could have written it. I read it many times and totally believed that was me.

HOW she feeds is what is disturbing you, and that is totally understandable, and hopefully fixable. But from what you describe, it ISN'T your supply which is inadequate, it's your confidence.

Your supply is possibly better than mine (if weight gain is any indication). And I'm still bf, enough to prevent my periods returning (gah). My boobs rarely feel hard unless there's been a huge gap between feeds. My boobs are so tiny that you'd swear they couldn't contain more than a couple of ounces each anyway! If your boobs met mine, I promise they'd feel superior. I intend to bully you about this until you admit that you actually do have enough milk for her. Because if you don't have enough, then I must have been worse.

I felt EXACTLY the way you are describing. But with hindsight, I think I was wrong. I don't think I could be where I am now if my supply had been as inadequate as I thought it was back then.

You need to work through these supply confidence issues. I think they are what threaten your continuing to bf.

vlc · 21/12/2008 17:13

And that paragraph does say...
"It doesn't always happen this way, and many babies may gain even if they do spend only a short period of time on the breast. They may still pull off and suck their hands because they want more sucking but if their weight gain is good, there is no need for concern.
"

Does this not describe dd2?

Grendle · 21/12/2008 18:11

I agree with vlc. Your baby is gaining an average of 3.5oz a week, and has wet and dirty nappies. This suggests your supply is just fine .

Unless there is over-supply, at this stage breasts don't feel full. Expressing gives no indication of supply.

There are, however, obviously some issues about your LO's behaviour during feeds, which I can understand are bothering you.

To be completely honest, and I'm sure this will not be what you want to hear, I think the most likely cause of the behaviour is posture, positioning, approach and attachment, i.e. the latch. Which position do you feed it? Have you tried starting nose-to-forehead and with her head in your cleavage so that she really has to tilt her head far back to reach?

There are other things you could consider -for example, if you reek of fenugreek then perhaps this is affecting the taste of the milk too?

Have another (((hug))) too.

NorthernLurkerwithastarontop · 21/12/2008 19:00

Aitch - I'm glad that the paragraph describes your dd in a way as it makes it clear again that you are not alone in this but I don't want it to knock your confidence further. I agree with Grendle that it's worth having another look at the latch - and 4 months is exactly the age where it can be hard to get them to focus on feeding as they get more curious - I know her adjusted age is younger but still -you could have an epic sppl and still have problems getting her to concentrate on it! I gave up trying to feed dd3 at toddler groups etc at that age because she just wouldn't stay on! Her weight gain shows you have a supply so take heart from that at least.

CoolYourJets · 21/12/2008 19:12

Aitch - fwiw I never dripped never mind squirted and I have bloody tandem feed for nearly two years.

Huge kudos for struggling on. DD1 was a nightmare to feed at about 4 months and sheer bloody mindedness saw me through.

biskybat · 21/12/2008 19:32

vlc is right,its not your supply thats the problem,its your confidence. My baby gained on average 3 1/2oz a week and she only ever fed for 5mins every 3 hours and hardly ever 'asked' for milk. Also I remember her going through a very fussy stage at about 4 months...not sure why as it wasn't a growth spurt

She was respectable 7 1b 12 oz when born and is still only 20lbs ish at almost15 months...

If you want to give up then 4 months is a jolly good length of time to have breastfed but if you need a goal to keep you going, why not try to keep going till the 6 month mark then when weaning at least some of the pressure will be off your boobs in providing her sole nutrition.

ilovelovemydog · 21/12/2008 19:33

Aitch, you have to do what's right for you. And really try not to compare babies!

DS was 5lbs 5 oz at birth and his weight has bottomed out totally. I asked for a referral to a Paediatrician who said that he was healthy; just small, albeit quite long.

It's so hard when they're small because there there isn't any error of margin space.

If you started formula feeding, would this make you more relaxed about her weight?

fishie · 21/12/2008 21:22

aitch i am really glad to hear you are still going after rocky start. just keep on, it can't possibly get worse. [holds aitch's nerve]

i remember the last scab dropping off pore ole left nip the day ds turned 6m. o the celebrations. i am still bloody feeding at 3.5y because after investing that much into there is no way i'm stopping unless ds wants to.

swanriver · 21/12/2008 21:58

Aitch, could you try waking the baby up for 2 hourly feeds, because it sounds like she is not demanding enough feeds. After all if she was newborn at 7-8 pounds presumably she would need to feed quite often? I don't think it could possibly matter giving her formula as well as continuing to put every effort into bfng, the two are not incompatible in my experience, but the most important thing is to get her alert and feeding vigorously. You know how you feel in this situation, and you feel that something is not right with her feeding and the milk supply. I supplemented a very sleepy baby (4.5 lb twin) from the beginning, and she went on having bottles to build her up (although people may disapprove of that phrase) and in the end I breastfed her for two years. I'm glad I did supplement her instead of struggling on. My older child was given top-ups at 10weeks for being underweight (again not feeding properly and I not having proper let-down) and despite feeling very upset that I had ever got into that situation (of underweight, miserable baby) I am deeply relieved that the problem was solved he became bonny and happy and fed brilliantly and breastfed for 10 months. All the best.

Aitch · 21/12/2008 22:26

thanks all. and URGH at the celebratory 6 month scab.

thing is, i know from experience that topping up with formula and bfing are a road to hell for me, although a short one. and i do want to keep bfing but i think not enough to wake the baby every two hours (she's not what i'd call a sleepy baby, she's awake for good periods and sleeps well, but just doesn't feed so great).

we have had a slightly better evening, just slightly. am considering goiing to bed for some skin to skin. although she is a sweaty little bollock so it's not comfortable At All. thanks again, i'm taking it all on board i promise.

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vlc · 21/12/2008 22:29

sweaty litle bollock. snort.

or try a bath with her instead? still skin to skin, but less sweaty. (worked for us to remind dd of how to feed and be relaxed too)

FrannyandZooey · 21/12/2008 22:31

well you've got my admiration
bfing when it isn't easy going is DEPRESSING and WEARING and all that
fact remains you have done it

Aitch · 22/12/2008 00:13

ta

(although she's just had two oz of formula).

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FrannyandZooey · 22/12/2008 09:04

oh that ruddy pumping! you are lactating saint

ILikeToHoHoHo · 22/12/2008 09:48

It's very hard and frustrating feeding a baby who is fussy at the breast. It's almost like you are having a fight/arguement with them to get them to feed. Multiply this by the amount of feeds you do a day and it can get very wearing and upsetting.

Whatever you decide to do Aitch, you should be proud of yourself. Especially knowing that you didn't take any decisions lightly or without thinking them through thoroughly first.

swanriver · 22/12/2008 10:02

Aitch, could you try expressing some milk before the baby latches on, by hand into her mouth, so that she realises there is milk to be had? I found that when the baby was feeding badly, it took ages for the milk to let down, and for that buzzing feeling of letdown to happen, sometimes not till half way through the feed. When he/I got better at bfng (he didn't open his mouth properly)the letdown was much quicker, almost immediate. I think he was really frustrated that the milk wasn't coming and sucked quite halfheartedly, not surprisingly was a bit tense and unhappy.
Back to supplementing - I know it can seem like the bogeyman, but it doesn't have to be like that. I felt so so anti and as if I had failed totally to need formula, but actually why did I feel like that, there I was making every effort to feed my baby myself. You said that it was the road to hell for you and your first child, but perhaps that was because you lost confidence in what you were achieving. Just for the record, I gave my 10 week old (who was about 10.5 Ibs) ds1 2 3 oz bottle formula top-ups per day (not sure what weight adjusted amount for your baby would be) one midmorning (so that we both had a good nap) and one just before bed at 7.00pm. Otherwise I fed him 2 hourly, and about 3 hourly at night. My supply dramatically increased, I could suddenly hear glugging etc and when he was weaned I put the formula (and stopped thinking about it) in his cereal, so then he became completely breastfed. When I dropped his evening top-up at 5 months (we did wean earlier in those days 8 years ago) I gave him the 3 oz top-up first, reduced it over 4 days, and bfd until he was satisfied. This increased the supply at bedtime. So that's the way I used formula, if it's any help. I'm sure I could have stopped using the top-ups earlier, but by that stage I didn't want to meddle with his food intake and just wanted him to be completely satisfied.

swanriver · 22/12/2008 10:06

Just for the record, I did not express with machines, as it just was exhausting, painful and didn't really help the main issue, getting baby properly feeding.

Jenbottleofeggnog · 22/12/2008 10:26

Just thought I'd say well done for getting to 16 weeks whatever you decide to do next, and good luck.
BFing a prem can be bloody hard work!

TinyTimLivesinVictorianSqualor · 22/12/2008 10:34

Aitch, sorry to do this, but I'm just going to throw something else into the mix to confuse you even more.
She doesn't have thrush does she?
Every time I've had trouble feeding my two and they've been fretful and fussy and pulling away it's been thrush.

ilovelovemydog · 22/12/2008 11:24

Good point VS....

Aitch · 22/12/2008 12:32

well i don't think so, tbh, she's no white patches or anything. i was however thinking of getting some nystatin just on the off chance...

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TinyTimLivesinVictorianSqualor · 22/12/2008 12:35

DS didn't have patches the second time. I just had slightly pale nipples.
Have you read the BfN leaflet?

Aitch · 22/12/2008 12:55

have phoned surgery and wept a little, hopefully there will be a presciption this afternoon for me and the baby. they didn't treat me when dd had thrush before, so maybe it's been lingering?

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