i can't go on with breast feeding, it's been 16 WEEKS now and there's still no click and she's STILL TINY

[Aitch]

i saw a wee three week old baby the other day, just feeding and feeding. no clawing, no grabbing at the breast and yanking it out of her mouth, no unlatching, just chomp chomp om nom nom thanks mum. and it made me cry.

so i think i might have to jack it in.

btw norhtern (before i finally go), i did think about what you suggested as it's also mentioned in kellymom, but really and truly i don't think so. i just don't squirt. i barely drip and never leak. when she pulls off it's nt like her mouth has milk in it, it's more like she's dissatisfied at the lack of it, and all that switching finally gets somtehing going. what do you think?

Callum was born at 4lb 8oz, sept 2007 and was only 6lb at xmas, he was 3 months old then. He is now 15 months and weighes 21lb, he is still BF, but has bottles of milk too now, only recently moved onto cow milk. Could you mix feed, there is nothing wrong with doing that.

Bizarrely, because of the school hols, it can actually be easier to get through on one of the bf helplines at Christmas. Most are open on Christmas day too, and yes, people do answer the phones between turkey. It's worth keeping calling, honest.

Night night. Make sure you do come back, both of you .

higgledy - do what you need to. Personally we got through it by DH shadowing me for weeks and putting up with my odd demads. If his work had been more demanding or if DD had been prem or high needs then we would have been on FF very early.

Aitch - go warm that bottle and have a good sleep, then look at it tomorrow. At 16 w you could combine for a while? You need the experts here!

right am finally going. i'd mix feed in a heartbeat but i suspect that my supply will be gone in a week. if that.

BTW I wanted to exclusive BF too for at least a year, but callum just didn't gain weight, we had weeks where his weight just stayed the same, or was 1oz gain. He basically wasn't strong enough to take enough to grow, he took enough to keep himself going to the next feed, but not to grow.
I expressed for months and he had a NGT tube for months after leaving SCBU, which we tubefed him down (didn't want to give a bottle too early) But it got to the point where I couldn't fight it anymore. I went to clinic and he had gained 1oz and I burst into tears and gave into the high energy formula. I admit that it helped with his weight gain but when we stopped he went back to his line he had dropped to. Now he looks bigger and healthy the professionals have backed off. but I think that I made the right decision

Yes I think if you've no squirting etc then oversupply is unlikely to be the issue. It's something I'm aware of though as mil struggled to feed dh but cracked it with his sister - she was pumping enough to donate to feed two prem babies at the local unit as well as dsil! Of course she still feels regretful about what dh had to struggle with. The things we put ourselves through eh?

So - an absence of leaking etc - do we think that suggests a slow let down then? In which case I just googled and found this No idea about the credentials of this site - but does the bit under reason 10 sound like what your dd is doing?

have you tried domperidone to increase your supply? I used it and it does work

aitch.....stop feeling so bad about this......your are doing fabulously, you truly are.

I had a dreadful feeder in DD3. she was born at term, but was born with chicken pox and it had a 8terrible* effect on feeding and weight gain. In fact, she was 8lb at birth and then dropped right off the charts......on her 1st birthday she was 15lb 11, so she didn;t even double her weight!

her issues tho were not just feeding/illness (she was later found to have tongue tie, but too late to do anything with), but also severe reflux, sleepyness and later, what turned out to be dairy allergy.

I struggled for weeks with breastfeeding.....in fact we even had to go into hospital for help when she was 9wks and then again at 16wks (and you know......we did esactly the same with DS2......apart from the chicken pox, DD3 and DS2 were identical with feeding/lack of weight gain).

anyhoooo........I digress.....you want help, not to hear/read about me.

do you pump regularly (ie, once she has had her feed, you go off and pump a little more to encourage more supply). I assume you have had wonderful advice from tictok and co.......??

I think part of what you are going thro, reading your post stating that she feeds beautifully when you are at the BF place, is that at home, you have all the other distractions and your older DD, and so are not quite relaxed, so of course DD2 will oick up on that slightly, and also, you are just tense and fretting that she is not taking enough.......you know, that is normal.....I was the exact same, the only difference being that I had either 2 older children in DD3's case, and 4 older ones by the time DS2 came along......SO not conductive to relaxing peaceful feeding of the type you imagine yourself having with your sweet new baby.

your DD is gaining, so you are clearly doing lots right. yes, she is gaining slowly, but hey, maybe she would anyway if she was on formula......without cloning her and trying feeding differently you can never know.
you might just have a naturally petite little lady who just needs more time to perfect the feeding. it is just up to you now as to how long you want to keep going for....and it is ok whichever option you take. you have given 16wks.....`16 wonderful weeks more than many out there. you have put heart and soul into this, no one could have asked less of you, so feel amazed and proud of yourself.

do not forget either......you have also had to recover from a sudden and scary delivery, plus (IIRC) all that hassle from builders dong the upstairs flat (that is you isn;t it, suffering that hell??).......don;t knock yourself, you really have given 100% of yourself to her.

right now tho, you need to relax, stop feeling guilty that your are failing her......you are not, you truly are not!

if she has the odd bottle, so what. why not give her one a day.......one that your DH can give while you rest maybe, or have a bath, pump, have a little you and me time with DD1.

and if you decide to swap completely.....that too is fine, but do it for the right reasons (that you want to), not that youo feel forced to thru guilt, as you will always and forever wonder 'but what if I had just tried for one more day'.

I really hope you've gone now, as it's late .

One thing to think about in relation to weight is that weight change can a symptom of a problem, but isn't actually a problem in itself. So if it is the symptom of something, then the challenge is to identify what is causing the symptom and address that. Causes could be issues with breastfeeding, underlying health problem or whatever. But, treating the weight is inappropriate, as that is not the problem, IYSWIM? And, I'm not saying here that your baby has a weight gain problem, as a gain of 3-4oz a week may weel be perfectly good, as I already said.

Waffling now, so going to go .

Has she got any probs with her neck?? my dd had a 'knot' in her muscles in one side of her neck which meant she couldnt latch on - it was easily fixed wih exercises i could do at home with her, always worth checking. But you've done well anyway, so if you feel its time to stop you can with no need for any guilt.

Oh, Aitch, so sorry to hear you're struggling, that's poo.

I think grendle's made some really good points, especially about the weight. You don't know, nobody knows, what sort of weight gain is "right" for her. Maybe she's meant to be small, maybe she isn't - but you'll only know for sure a couple of years down the line. I think focusing on the feeding is a better approach because it's easier to tell whether she's feeding well than whether she's gaining weight appropriately.

I'm no expert and you know loads, so I'm hesitant to give advice, but I'm interested to hear that she feeds well at the bf clinic. Because there's a huge difference (I imagine) between a baby who sometimes feeds well and one who never feeds well.

Have you any thoughts about why she feeds differently when she's there? Is there any chance a bf counsellor could watch you feed at the clinic and then at home and try to spot the difference?

Whether you sort this out or not, I think Moondog has put it perfectly: "Fuck me,you deserve a medal."

You really do, you're amazing.

Aitch couldn't see this and not post. You're a star, woman. You do know that? You've given dd2 the best start a premature baby could have (well, any baby but especially her).

I can't give any advice - my first 16 weeks were a bloody nightmare (literally) and it did get better after that, but it was a pain problem and I think it's way easier to put up with physical pain yourself. I doubt I'd have got on as well as you if I'd had the extra worry of supply issues. Well, except the niggling worries we all get at one time or another.

Yes she's wee but she's also so little if you think about her corrected age. You're feeding a newborn, you've just been doing it for 16 weeks (amazing that she's that old already!). Do you think this could have something to do with it?

Gah! What do I know? It's got to be a whole new ball of wax with a toddler to keep happy as well. Be kind to yourself. What about setting yourself some sort of goal, eg I'll bf for another fortnight and then rethink. Maybe having a (possible) end in sight will take off some pressure. It helped for me that first Christmas when I was convinced ds was digesting more of me than my milk .

Still up for that meet-up btw. One day ds and I will be lurgy free at the same time...

Oh, and ds always fed perfectly at that bloody clinic as well .

Sounds like her weight gain is fine, she seems to be following Tink quite closely. Her weight looked terrible in the Red Book but on the hospital chart she looked huge! Remember she is premature and not big enough to be gaining 1lb a week, I'm not sure Tink's ever gained that much.

Another thing that occured to me, you could be at the wonderful 4 month stage where everything is suddenly new and interesting. You try and latch them on and it's "Oh, look at that there! I'd better just hold onto Mum tightly in case she moves away". Try minimising distractions when you're feeding, probably not easy when you have a toddler around, especially as I can imagine she's one of the biggest distractions "Oooh, look there's big sis! What's that she's doing now?"

Aitch. Ouch. You sound weary and sad and frustrated and desperate and tired. And that makes all of the separate parts of the problem splurge together until it seems insurmountable.

And it is not. I hope I am not out of order here by probing, but I desperately want to help you, and the only thing I can think of is to suggest you isolate the part of the problem which is causing you most concern, and see if it can be outweighed or overcome at all.

Break it down for me, Aitch, can you spell out what worries you most; is it

dd2's charted weight gain?
dd2's actual well-being, health, development, happiness?
the medical profession's expectations and pressure on you?
the rotten self-doubt that you are not cutting it somehow?
the feeling of being robbed of the loveliness of the bf experience that you have both waited so long for, and both absolutely deserve?
your own self-flagellation if you call an end to bf and how you will come to terms with it?

Have a think. We can perhaps eliminate some of this pressure.

Oh, and I have some domperidone left over which I will gladly post to you if you want. TBH, for me, I didn't notice much difference, in fact I found "more milk plus" had a noticeable impact instead. But it's yours if you want it.

Partly because of the encouragement and faith you and others had in me, I'm still bf dd at 17 months, you know. AND your dd is gaining better than mine ever did. I've just checked my spreadsheet. After 16 weeks mine had gained 2 lb and 3 oz in total. Can you find the same faith in yourself?

I'm in your corner. As are many others.

Hi Aitch,

I know you from your BLW forum (I have same username) and have been reading about you and your DD2 a little on mumsnet. My ds was born at 31+3 and went home after 5 weeks. The main reason he didn't go home earlier was that he wouldn't latch on and I didn't want to introduce bottles in the NNU. I had expressed since he was born but hadn't managed to get him to latch on despite trying 2-3 times a day towards the end. Eventually I tried nipple shields and it seemed to be working. We went home a few days later.

I know you are feeling rubbish but you've really tried this for all you're worth and I do know how hard it is with a premature baby as they are SO sleepy, especially in the early weeks. I remember having to change ds mid-feed to wake him up (after only about 5 minutes).

I couldn't get ds to latch on EVER (not exaggerating) and went home on nipple shields, which affected my supply (that and he wasn't feeding for long before nodding off). After only a week and him starting to lose weight I ended up giving him bottles of EBM (which to be fair he was only taking about 25ml of at a time as well). I ended up exclusively pumping and managed to 6 months, but I kept on trying bf even though I thought it was futile. Once he did latch on for about 5 minutes (at about 17 weeks actually) but he never did it again . I think there were too many things working against us.

Even if you do decide on formula, you have lots of options and it doesn't have to be all formula? You could keep on giving a little EBM (as much as you can manage with a toddler around) for a few more weeks if you wanted to? That might make the transition more gentle for you and her?

I know you have been feeding and expressing at the same time to keep supply going, but I found this forum had really good tips for making life easier when expressing milk and tricks to make life easier.

Good luck whatever you decide. You are not shit it is just the circumstances which are.

Hi Aitch,

Haven't been able to read all the posts, wanted to echo Grendle's post about never making a decision in the dark!

You must be feeling frustrated and desperate. It took me 10 weeks to get anywhere near sorted with dd1 and I can remember sitting on the edge of the bath just sobbing. 16 weeks is brilliant.

I know this is la-la land but is there any way you can take some time away from work and have someone take your other child out for the odd hour or so, so that you can just sit (or lie down) with your baby? Maybe less time trying to 'do' things to solve the problem and more time just 'being' with her would help a little [sorry if that is just an infuriating thing to say!]

Oh Aitch .
I'm not sure that I can offer much in the way of practical suggestions that hasn't been said already, but have you tried feeding in the bath? Lovely and relaxing for both you and the baby surrounded by warm water, but she's possibly less likely to actually fall asleep like that. Appreciate not practical for every feed!

Have you got a breastfeeding necklace too - something for dd to focus on and grab at rather than you?

Lots of moral support coming from me anyway. Can totally see why you wouldn't want to switch to bottles - going out with just your boobs is so easy, and you never have to worry that you've forgotten something. Hoping that things feel less bleak this morning.

Just to reassure you that other people's babies have similar responses.

DS (standard 16 week old baby) still stuffs his fists into his mouth when we start to nurse. I do hold his hands whilst he latches on, nothing wrong with keeping your baby's hands under control

DS also can latch on and off several times before settling to nurse, if he is over tired or very hungry. Could this apply to your daughter ?

I just want to say this morning, now that I'm a little bit clearer headed, that I think 16 weeks is amazing - people used to wean at 4 months, premature or not - my mum did in the 70s - so I think you have given your baby incalculable benefits getting this far (four times further than me and counting) and must not feel sad or guilty if you decide it isn't working. The process of feeding AND pumping AND sterilising is exhausting, I think it's so easy for good intentions and common sense to fly out the window after a few weeks feeding every two hours, for hours, so there's barely half an hour between feeds in the middle of the night.

Every time you give breast milk, you give the long chain fatty acids that are good for brain development, antibodies, etc. Whatever happens, however you feed her from now on, you have succeeded.

Message withdrawn

I would definitely get La Leche leader out to see you
IME they are the most knowledgeable people out there
possibly am just lucky that my local ones are good? but please do try them and if no luck you could talk to one of mine on the phone? they know stuff you can't find on the net - sussed out things about ds2 on the phone, that aren't even googleable which impressed me mightily

it would be fine to go to formula as far as dd goes, that would meet her needs for nourishment etc but I am not sure it would meet YOUR needs atm aitch
and your needs matter too

Aitch, I think VS's idea - to rank the pressures you feel - is a good one. I also think you have a lot of insight into what's going on - you are still waiting for bf to be guarenteed easy and satisfying (and reassuring in terms of growth) for both of you and it doesn't look like it's happening. That's what's getting to you, and 16 weeks is a l....o....n....g time to be waiting for that.

Aitch, I have only read your OP and I have been mostly off MN lately so sorry I haven't held your hand before, hairy trucker stylee of course.

My 12 wk old claws, grabs, yanks my nipple in and out, arches, etc.

couldn't it be just a developmental thing for yours too? They do these things because they can, not because something is wrong.

sorry you feel unrewarded and wanting to jack.