why do people bottle feed?

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first of all, i dont want this to become a slanging match. i am honestly curious about the reasons.
im asking about those women who do not even try breastfeeding. the ones who think that it is an equal choice between breast and formula. i dont want to judge anyone, i just want to know how these women can justify denying their babies species specific milk.
my eldest was mainly bottlefed, my younger two were exclusively breastfed till they were weaned. and moved to formula around the eight month mark.

Yes mogwai!
MIL constantly telling me how they had nothing because she didn't work.
Er yes..fine, but my expectations are higher nearly 40 years on. Need to feed my addiction to books, Chablis and nice things for my house...

Oh god, glad I'm not the only selfish parent. I'm increasing my days from 3 to 4 this year (if I get the job) as I want more money.

I don't think it's selfish to want money so that your family can have nice things.
As a friend of mine says 'I want to earn LOADS of money, so that I don't have to worry about money.'

Interstingly, although mil was home with her three ds's , my dh says that he can't ever remember her actually playing with them. Always busy with chores.

my mother gave up a full time job to look after my (much younger) sister. She then spent five years watching Richard and Judy while my sister floundered around in a baby walker with no stimulation. I think she was depressed and lonely, at least work would have been an outlet for her.

I never, ever saw her play with my sister, who has grown into an ignoramus, thinks a McDonald's salad is haute cuisine. Chacun a son gout, indeed Moondog. (I'd put the accents in but I don't know how to and this is an american keyboard)

Moondog - re: comment about my DS crying because he could smell breastmilk. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - it was a purely hypothetical comment - it never actually happened to me although I understand that babies can detect the smell of their mothers' milk. So please don't feel sad. My DS was an extremely contented, well nourished and much adored baby who wanted for absolutely nothing.

I can't help but conclude that before long (somewhat predictably, yawn, yawn) the contributions of the breast feeding lobby to discussions like this one inevitably take on a slightly superior moral tone. You know the sort of thing - poor little babies who aren't breast fed aren't properly nourished, or loved due to the lack of effective bonding which bottlefeeding inevitably (apparently) lends itself to.

Having contributed to this, and the recent thread on CSs, I'm beginning to wonder whether shiny medals equivalent to a Blue Peter Badge bearing the inscription "proper mother" are handed out by the NCT to any mother who can claim to have had a drug free vaginal delivery and breast fed their baby for the entire first year of it's life

KM - don't think your last comment is fair on those of us who had a drug free labour & bf afterwards. Every experience is a valid as the other. Just to get through labour ok deserves a badge imho

There's rather a lot of venom in that post, KM. Why?

I couldn't agree more Milward - but you're one of those chosen few whose experience is seen by SOME as being ever so slightly more valid than that of others amongst us. Therein lies the problem...

Know what you mean - but just to say I'm not the choosen few!!! I've had different experinces with each labour. Had a cs for 2nd & was happy that there was this option as in the good old days it would have been an impossible situation. Even if a mum chooses to have a cs just because she wants one then fine as well. Anyone who's been through labour knows that there are no easy options - having an epidural is no fun, having a cs is painful in recovery, having a drug free birth is challenging as well. There should be respect all round for everymums choice or what she had to accept.

Hunkermunker - no venom, it's just my way of putting across my views on things I feel strongly about - that and I felt the need to respond to the rather partonising and condescending tone of Moondog's comment re: my hypothetical comment about my DS crying after the smell of breastmilk. Hope this answers your question.

Perhaps it touched a nerve with me because I had a drug-free vaginal birth and DS is breastfed - fgs I feel motherguilt typing this now!

Milward these are my sentiments exactly. It's just a shame that SOME people seem unable to share our views. I still stand by the comment I made about the "proper mothers" I referred to in my earlier post.

A healthy happy baby and a healthy happy mother is all that any of us should aspire to. The many and varied ways we achieve that are all a great feat. There will, however, always be institutions and individuals who subscribe to the view that there is a "right way" to do it and if you don't do it the "right way" you can be left with feelings of guilt and a feeling that you've somehow failed yourself and/or your baby in some way.

By way of example, I took exception to a poster displayed on one of the walls when I was in hospital after having given birth. It depicted a smiling BFing mother looking down at her child and the slogan read "the milk of human kindness" - how is that supposed to make women who choose not to, are unable to, or who cannot successfuly, BF, feel? Unkind I guess.

Perhaps I'm not making my point very well but all I really want to do is register my strong objection to those who take the moral highground over BFing.

I hear what you're saying kaansmum! Why is it a shame that some people don't share your views? That's life.
As for drugs, I'm all for drugs, wherever and when ever possible () but again I don't think it can be compared to b/feeding. A drugged/drug free labour is often something that women have no choice over.I don't really think I could have managed without the help of diamorphine, I really don't.

With regard to your objection to the b/feeding poster. Well, what would you prefer? No poster? A poster of an unsmilling woman? What exactly is it that you object to? Once again,we are back to the scenarion where bottlefeeders tell us in one breath how confident they are with their choice, and yet they object to material/information which tells them that it is the best choice for the child.

I'm glad it was only hypothetical. I've no doubt that your child is loved.
Have a good Mothering Sunday. We're off to church with my mother.

Interesting thread.

wrt moondog's question to kaansmum about the poster - this thread has raised a similar question in my mind, ie:

How could breastfeeding be promoted, without alienating/upsetting bottlefeeders?

It's hard to imagine any way of saying bfeeding is a good thing, without getting up the noses of those who can't/won't.

Yet it is a good thing, and new mums (and dads) have a right to be informed.

Tricky.

Because-

*save any embarrassment with friends/family
*be able to go out and not sat on sofa all day demand feeding
you can diet(ie its not recommended when b/feeding
You lose weight quicker becuase you can diet and becuase your body is not storing body fat for b/feeding(also b/feeding makes you really hungrey and thirsty) also b/feeding does not make you lose weight quicker- it makes your womb contract quicker.
*it stays in their system longer so often bottlefed babies go longer between feeds
*anyone can feed them if your not around without faffing around trying to express a few measly oz's
*you can see how much they've taken

I think I might be getting slightly misunderstood as a fervent anti BFder! I'm not trying to put across a message that BFding is in any way, shape or form a bad thing, of course it is not, it is best for babies if they have a mother who is able/willing to feed them that way.

If you've read my earlier post, you'll know that I felt a strong urge to BF my DS when he was born - and I did. Obviously instinctively I knew that it was the right thing to do and the best thing for him. The fact that he was only BF for about 10 days of his life and bottle fed for the rest does not detract from the fact that had I been able to continue with BFding I most definitely would have. Attendant minor social embarrassments, physical inconveniences or interuptions to my social life, would have been willingly endured for him.

Of course BFding needs to be actively promoted but it think this should be done by simply presenting the facts which stand up by themselves. I don't think that anyone would argue that good quality breastmilk is the best thing for a baby and surely this and natural mothers' instinct alone should be more than enough to "sell" BFding to expectant mothers. I don't think it's the way to go for those responsible for promoting BFding to resort to using sublimial messages which can make women feel guilty or like bad mothers if they have made the conscious choice to bottle feed their babies or have been unable to establish BFding and have agonised over the, usually very tough (in my case at least), decision to switch to bottle feeding.

We may be mammals, like dogs, cows, pigs, and sheep and all the other animals who suckle their young with their "species specific milk" but we differ from those animals in that we have the ability for rational thought and are able to make a conscious choice to feed our young in another way if we wish to. So Stich, the short answer to your question of how women can justify denying their children species specific milk is simply, because they can. Consumerist society ensures that there is a wide range of formula milks available in our shops, there is nothing to prevent women from exercising their choice to buy the brand they want and feed their children with it.

Anyway, variety and differing views are the spice of life, if we were all the same there would be no place for discussion forums such as this one

Sorry, just noticed a typo

"I don't think that anyone would argue that good quality breastmilk is the best thing for a baby

Should read:

"I don't think that anyone would argue that good quality breastmilk is NOT the best thing for a baby"

Sorry

Just want to answer busyalexsmummy's points from a personal point of view:

Because-

*save any embarrassment with friends/family

Breastfeeding can be done very discreetly, plus lots of women aren't embarrassed anyway (though I accept some are!). In general (somewhat disappointingly ), people aren't very interested in one's boobs!

*be able to go out and not sat on sofa all day demand feeding

I went out all the time - still do. NEVER sat on the sofa all day demand feeding - DS was demand fed, but I worked out his patterns and signals very early. And arguably it was easier for me to go out because I just took my boobs - couldn't run out of milk and have to come home

*you can diet(ie its not recommended when b/feeding

You can diet while breastfeeding - definitely. I held onto weight to begin with because I was eating anything I felt like and blaming it on breastfeeding making me hungry When I stopped doing that and just ate sensibly, the weight fell off - literally.

*You lose weight quicker becuase you can diet and becuase your body is not storing body fat for b/feeding(also b/feeding makes you really hungrey and thirsty) also b/feeding does not make you lose weight quicker- it makes your womb contract quicker.

Depends on the woman, her diet, etc. Indeed, some women have trouble hanging onto weight when they breastfeed.

*it stays in their system longer so often bottlefed babies go longer between feeds

But often they don't And if you're breastfeeding, it's not as much hassle to get the next feed ready - just latch DB on and away you go.

*anyone can feed them if your not around without faffing around trying to express a few measly oz's

I didn't want to not be around (remember I'm answering this from a personal point of view and I accept everyone's situations are different), so this was never a problem. Plus I could express like Niagara, but again, I accept that this isn't the same for everyone and I am NOT being smug about it

*you can see how much they've taken

...And worry it's not enough - with breastfeeding, yes, OK you don't know whether they've had 4oz or 6oz or 2oz, but if they're full, you don't try to get them to take a bit more simply because you don't know how much they've had. The baby lets their appetite guide them, not some instructions on the side of a tin calculated for their weight, not their appetite from day to day. And IMO, it has to be healthier to do it that way.

OMG it gets worse!!! I can spell "subliminal" honest .

Interesting stuff. First of all I should remind you I'm pro-choice. I'm easy going on most matters, and as I said before, I'll be bottle feeding my own children, whilst being equally pleased for anyone who breastfeeds instead.

Back to the NCT stuff. I haven't joined the NCT because they encouraged my best friend, who has an anomaly in her brain anatomy which leaves her at risk of cerebral bleeding, to give birth to her first baby naturally in a fourth floor flat. She gave birth to an enormous baby (she's 5 foot 2) with no pain relief after over two hours of pushing, during which she passed out. Her nearest hospital is miles away, and obviously also down all those steps from her flat.

This friend actually asked her obsterician to sign some sort of form saying it was safe for her to have her first baby at home. The obstetrician would not sign the form on the basis of her brain condition, he felt she should come into hospital, and that she may even require a c-section. She was mighty pissed off, and kept spouting all this stuff about not wanting any medical intervention, that the NCT says this and that. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

The NCT also advocated breastfeeding, and she turned overnight into a very competitive mother who talked about nothing but her "experiences" and spent all day and night pumping minute amounts of breast milk and shaking the bottle at anyone who came to visit to demonstrate how proud she was of her offerings. I was almost too scared to accept a coffee in case she felt I ought to have the "experience" of her breast milk too.

Her child is now three years old and she takes the high ground over my decision to have my first child in hospital, remaining open to the option of epidural and with every intention of bottle feeding. We've known each other since we were seven years old, and it strikes me she finally feels she's made up for the fact that my A level results were better than hers!!!!!

Interestingly, she has also had bonding issues with her daughter and even now I feel their relationship is very strained.

I no longer regard Michelle as a close friend, can't believe how motherhood has changed her for the worse. I feel she took irresponsible decisions with regard to the birth itself (I wouldn't have been quite so concerned had it been her second child or had the doctor not said she needed a c-section), and frankly, although I admire how she has persevered with the breast feeding, I feel she did it for the blue peter badge in the same way that she once went vegetarian for a month and had a phase of buying all her clothes from Oxfam (now on designer gear, predictably).

It has put me right off anything to do with the NCT, which is a shame because they probably have lots to offer, and it has made me even firmer in my resolve that "natural" is not always the best way for everyone and that I will be neither bullied nor shamed into following a fad, a trend or a fashion so that I can wear the badge of honour.

As for my friend Michelle, I'm sad we aren't so close anymore, but I'm thankful she lives 40 miles away and we are seeing less of one another these days. I can't bear the thought of her comparing my skills as a mother or comparing our children's school reports/sporting acheivements. It's so tedious!

Mogwai, it does seem a shame (your word) that you reject NCT and what it has to offer because of the behaviour of your friend.

NCT's stance on home birth is to inform women that they can have their babies at home, and does not bully or shame anyone into making this decision. It sounds like your friend was pretty determined to have a home birth and she got information from other sources than NCT and decided she would go for it. One aspect of making it possible for women to have a birth at home is that for some women, this decision will seem irresponsible to others - but that's freedom for you

Motherhood does change and challenge friendships, it's true. But it's also a shame you couldn't offer support for her expressing efforts. Expressing 'minute amounts of milk' day and night is not done for fun or to show off - it is usually done for the benefit of a baby who is unable to breastfeed effectively direct for some reason. It is very, very hard work to sustain this.

I expect and hope you made the right supportive noises at the time, even though you now make a cheap joke at her expense about using it in the coffee she offered to make you.

It's sad when friendship dies. You now sneer at her clothing preferences and her no-longer-vegetarian diet and instead of sympathising with her over the bonding issues she had with her child (which are always very distressing to mothers who experience these), you disparage her current relationship.

Maybe this friend did indeed look up to you at one stage, and now feels pround she had the sort of birth and feeding experience she planned for. What she hasn't het learnt is not to parade all this in a way that made you feel you were being criticised or compared. But honestly, I wonder how much you had in common with her anyway.....

"How could breastfeeding be promoted, without alienating/upsetting bottlefeeders?" (Welliemum)

Why can't mums to be not just be given information about breast, information about bottle, and be given the respect to make their own decisions?

Why should one have to be "promoted"?

I had always intended to breastfeed, but even I felt overwhelmed and bullied by the breast is best campaign by the end of my pregnancy.

We are grown women, with our own minds, in a supposed civilised society - surely choice based on a balanced set of information is what should be being promoted, and not what the government or anyone else thinks is best at the time.

I agree Flamesparrow. I'm due at the end of June and am terrified at the prospect of telling my midwife that I have decided to bottle feed, as she has already put on my notes that I intend to breast feed and unless I was asleep at the time, we haven't even discussed the issue yet! I have purely weighed up the pros and cons and what I believe to be best for my personal situation, and from what I have read and from the pure example that I was bottle fed from birth and I have been perfectly healthy all my life (touch wood!!). I am happy with my decision, but as I said, I dread the day I have to tell my midwife and why should I feel like that?

Expectantmum-I was expecting hell from the MW when I said I intended to bottlefeed, she was perfectly fine about it. If you are 100% certain and prepared to stick to your guns you should be fine. I was ready with a steely "I've made an informed decision, you will have to respect that" speech though, to the point where I'd decided I'd walk out if she harped on. TBH, it's probably not worth mentioning if she hasn't brought it up, you might want to ring the hospital and see if they provide formula though.

I was bullied into bottle feeding my son in hospital when I very much didn't want to. It happens a lot. HVs are often formula-mad.
Breastfeeding is promoted by the NHS because it is healthier for babies and mothers yet it is amazingly rare. On the other hand, formula is promoted by formula companies who spend a hell of a lot more than the NHS just to make big profits. Why should they have it all their own way? Saying breastmilk is healthier for the vast majority of babies and mothers than formula is NOT the same as saying formula is a terrible thing (because it isn't at all, it can be a fantastic thing and breastfeeding can be a horrible, demoralising struggle for some women, often, but not always, because of lack of proper support) but it is still a fact.