17 week old and baby rice

[pamelat]

Any opinions?

The health visitor has asked me to wait another week as she is still gaining weight well but she is cranky (and has been for 2 weeks or so), waking frequently at night, grabbing my toast (!) and crying when she cant have it.

I believe she is genuinely hungry, especially at night.

Health visitor said to put her in her own room instead as that could be why is waking so frequently but personally I would rather satisfy her hunger and have her near us?

I know that 17 weeks is meant to be the earliest you start it but what are the negatives for starting it at 17 weeks?

People always cite the WHO for this. The WHO takes into account all countries, some where food is scarce and the mothers milk is all a child may have for sustenance due to famine/flood etc. It also doesn't take into account the vast cultural differences between the western and developing world. In this climate many mums have no option but to return to work full time due to economic committments pre baby. Therefore, these mums need to have some order back in their life by the time they do, to be able to juggle the roles of wife/mum and employee. In the developing world where most women work with their families in larger close knitt communities, childcare help from family and friends is more available and babies are not left at such a young age so its easier to bf/wean late/ co-sleep(usually the only option due to huts being one room).
What I'm trying to say is that its not about getting the childfree life back, its about practicalities.

They have, StarlightM - it's why all their products are "inspired by breastmilk".

Made from cows milk though - don't say that on the packs in big letters, do they?

Oh yes, the WHP, the NHS says fuck all about BFing.

*WHO

"the research is usually biased and carried out by pro bf websites."

is that your professional opinion of the research on which the WHO, the DOH for which you have worked and UNICEF uses to make recommendations for babies in the UK and the rest of teh World?

btw, probf websites don't carry out research, some of them publish it though.

and a lot of Health websites also publish these results too, irrespective of who they are speaking to.

Have you seen the latest Weaning leaflet by the DOH? It recommends weaning at 6 months for all babies. FF and BF. it dates from Jan 2008 and it is on Page 2 so you don't have to read very far.

Yep and mines sleep! Night all

tori, yet again you cause concern by using your professional experience as a way of justifying your views.

"The trouble is that the research is usually biased and carried out by pro bf websites."

What utter and complete rubbish. 'Pro-bf websites' don't carry out research - where would they get the money, expertise, time and opportunity? To do research requires an enormous amount of all of these things, and websites don't do it - surely you know this? And if you know it, why do you say something so foolish?

Infant feeding research is carried out internationally, and when it is reported in respected journals and assessed and overviewed by respected bodies (like WHO, like Cochrane) we can trust the conclusions they come to because, guess what, they don't take into account the 'biased' or ill-researched evidence.

Please withdraw your preposterous statement!

Yes, the WHO recommendations are only possible for women in developing countries, Tori, because they have more leisure time.

Or, back in the real world, the WHO recommendations are the same all over the world and women everywhere will make their own choices and justifications for not following them if they decide not to.

But it is perfectly possible to breastfeed and return to work (even full time - just ask Xenia - or me!), to have older children, to have a hungry baby, pretty much any reason, actually - it's possible to breastfeed in many challenging situations, in developing or developed countries.

Whether you choose to overcome the challenges in your own life is up to you.

Do you really think the researchers and the WHO are too stupid to recognise the correlation between lifestyles in developing and developed countries when submitting their research and handing out guidelines to all countries?

Do you think you are smarter than they are in that respect? How very arrogant of you!

What practicalities are you referring to?

Can I just say that sometimes there is no choice with various of the challenges to bfing - I do understand that.

But the things Tori talks about aren't necessarily insurmountable enemies of bf. They were the challenges to which I referred.

Aw, without roundabout justifications, there'd be no MN, SM!

seems like tori stayed up late enough to prove some of my points in my post at 22:50:07. [rotten]

well off to bed now.

is Tori doing this again

Bored Tori?

tori - from the WHO themselves regarding the infant feeding strategy (of excl milk to 6 months)

"...is recommended as a global health policy in both developing and developed countries "

Pamelat

When you ask questions like the one in your OP

"I know that 17 weeks is meant to be the earliest you start it but what are the negatives for starting it at 17 weeks?"

Some people will respond with the risks you ask to understand, they will link you to the unbiassed research and facts for you to read for yourself, and they will correct any dodgy advice which has been proven to be unsound / old wives tales / urban myths.

Others will go

Well I didn't read the research
I don't believe it cos it doesn't suit me
I did this and I'm alright Jack (might be a crappy decision that you live to regret but hey, I'll be a distant memory by the time you find out)
Do what I did, mate, cos then I feel my own decisions are validated despite the evidence to the contrary

And they might chuck in a "ooo these pro-bf folks are so righteous" for good measure.

I assume from your OP you wanted facts to make an intelligent decision, rather than peer pressure to 'join our gang, we take risks and you can too'

Hope somewhere amongst the bunfight you found some answers!

Coming in late, sorry!

Caz10 ? love the coke line erm comment.

There is a growth spurt due at this stage as Highlander said. Because of the way milk production works babies will ask for more milk at night, even when they are FF. As has also been said, milk contains far more calories so it?s better if they are hungry to give extra milk as you can?t get that many calories in with solids. Have you tried keeping her in bed with you so you can feed through the night, it?s how we got through the waking nights. We didn?t really suffer from sleepless nights and we?re quite light sleepers who tend to wake to talk to each other.

Welliemum said some good things about sleeping through the night. They?re really not supposed to! It?s one of the big races we get into when we have kids, when they will sleep through the night (I?m typing this at 0020 with a 22 month old on my lap and typing 24 hour clock cause I can?t see the buttons properly lol)

Seeker excellent post!

??mental to tell a mother to ignore her instincts. Yet the same sort of book will contain stuff about mothers knowing instinctively when their baby's ready for solids??

Hunker, that?s brilliant!

??our body makes milk that our babies need and will satsify them until their body is capable of more??

Actually, breastmilk is perfectly balanced whatever age; there is even hospitals in some countries that give it to their sick!

??what exactly have you managed in accomplishing it??

Well said!

StarlightMcKenzie ? the thing about the stomach is that they?re born with it being the size of a marble (about 1 teaspoon capacity), at 3 days it is the size of a shooter (large marble, 1 ounce capacity) and by a week it is the size of a table tennis ball (about 2 ounces) and it doesn?t get that much bigger. That?s why breastfed babies need to feed more often. They are capable of being stretched to hold more but it isn?t natural for it to get that stretched.

Verylittlecarrot brilliant post.

I had to reply to Tori32 separately, I can?t believe the things I?ve just read!

Why do they need to be ?taught? anything? Especially when it goes against what is natural or normal, they need to wake during the night, that?s been proven and forcing them to sleep through is putting them at risk of SIDS. Why the rush to make babies independent? They have potentially 70-90 years ahead of them, why do we have to worry about independence in the first couple of years? You sound like you are quoting GF to me! Although I?m starting to think maybe more CV

The comment about bf babies get used to feeding through the night is total poppycock! How many adults or even children do you know who can?t get through the night without suckling? How many toddlers? I know many women who cosleep and nursed through the night, myself included, I don?t know any that carry it on. It?s a totally normal thing to do so why should it cause problems? Tink has been sleeping through the night from 8-8 from around 8 months ? no dummies, bottles, early weaning or separate room. She decided to do it. Who are the 4 year olds who can?t sleep without being treated like a baby?

??its about me liking sleep myself??

You had babies because??

??you pick a baby up the minute it starts to snuffle because you think its hungry??

Don?t you think we are capable as mothers to know the difference between a snuffle and hunger?

Next question, what?s size of a baby got to do with anything? My daughter was in 0-3 when she started on solids, it has nothing to do with what was going on inside her!

If size has anything to do with development then how about this? my brother was 6? when he started secondary school (that is six foot at 11 years old) did that make him capable of doing the things that adults do? Was he able to drink, smoke or have sex because he was the size or bigger than most adults? However old we are our bodies develop at pretty much the same rate.

"Because its about how long food stays in the stomach not calorific content."

Oooh, Sunday Lunch Syndrome! Over fill the baby till they?re placid and incapable of doing anything other than digest their food.

??between PND and not??

You have PND or you see sleeping as a way of avoiding it?

Ah, I understand it now, only formula companies are unbiased enough to make accurate studies

Sorry, I didn?t realise you were a nurse specialising in infant nutrition, I retract everything I said.

Might have said this before, but the official advice from the American Academy of Pediatrics is to wean after 6 months.

And if you're suggesting that the US is a 3rd world country you're going to make the Americans very cross.

More seriously, if you read the studies that the WHO expert committee advice was based on (I have), you'll find that they evaluated studies from all over the world. This is because they concentrated on health aspects, not on social ones. In other words, the advice is based on biological factors which are common to children the world over.

Children in developing countries are not a different species.

Oh, I don't know about that... have you watched Extreme Makeover?