when i had my last baby a year ago, i honestly thught formula was almost as good as breastmilk

[codhotbod]

didn't realise there was all these risks involved in giving formula, if i had i would of percivered more with the bf.

i bet theeres lots of women that think formulas almost as good.

from the ABM.

will try to find the post later. read it here on mn.

I totally agree about Bounty, Sabire. There is no open discussion at all. People seem to want to justify their own choices without looking honestly at the facts. I have been attacked for my views on introducing solids at 6 months rather than 10 weeks .

read Place's post

My experience on Bounty has taught me a lot about the very bizarre and complex ways this issue has been internalised by women and how it's been misrepresented in the media and by health professionals. You really get the measure of the depth of the ignorance and the cultural and personal neurosis that surrounds infant feeding there.

To a certain extent I found it fascinating - which is what kept drawing me back. It's like everyone there is caught up in the most profound, collective and individual denial of the facts - and of logic. Some of them (not all by a long shot) would go so far as admitting that there are some health benefits of breastfeeding, but at the same time could not accept that babies who are not breastfed are missing out on anything or might be affected in any way by being ff. I remember one person arguing that all the risks were theoretical and that no actual baby ever became ill from not being breastfed. And everyone on this thread was agreeing with her. She assumed that all the research on the health differences between breast and formula fed babies was conducted using hypothetical statistical models or something. I'd get caught up in these debates and it would be like being trapped in some parallel universe where the facts simply don't count for anything...!

JingleyJen - with reference to your link about risks of infant formula feeding - you can find out how they reached the conclusions, as the references are listed (just below the para entitled 'Barriers to Breastfeeding').

I think they see the 'breast is best' message as pure rhetoric on the part of health professionals. The FF and BF debates on there seemed to discuss the two as though they were two equal options and any attempt to suggest otherwise would be taken as a personal criticism. It reminds me of those lists you see with the pros and cons of bf and ff and there is an equal number for each. It seems that people are so caught up trying to preserve the feelings of FF mums that the risks of ff cannot be aired honestly.

Mummies who have moved onto ff and feel upset that they have not had the facts - you are inspirational and selfless to not want the next generation of mothers to be mislead in the same way.

A brave thread (IMO)

Finallypregnant - no one wants to make people who cannot bf feel awful, I just want people to have the information, then if they are in a position to choose, as many women on this thread were, they can. If the debate was opened up and women treated more honestly then at least they could choose for themselves if they had that option.

I know some women don't have a choice because of the medication they need to take for a variety of reasons, or specific circumstances in their lives, but should the rest of woman kind be disadvantaged just to save someone's feelings? I am very sorry you are in the position of not having a choice Do look into it further to reassure yourself because as you don't have a choice how could you possibly be letting your baby down by not bf? You will do the very best that you can for them as all women do WITH THE FACTS THAT ARE AVAILABLE.

So good to read this thread.....I used to visit Bounty a bit when dd was tiny but found it a bit depressing for the reasons Sabire outlines.

cothotbod (and others) you may find The Problem with Breastfeeding by James Akre interesting reading as it discusses a lot of the cultural issues we've touched on.

finallypregnant, I agree that you should not made to feel bad for not bf for good reasons. I think that part of the problem is that in the past (and to some extent today) people were told that they "couldn't" breastfeed for all kinds of reasons, some of them spurious, or found that they couldn't because they did not get any practical help.

I also think that some (by no means all) health professionals don't see breastfeeding as valuable to either mother or baby and so don't properly take that into account when giving healthcare advice. But I stress that I'm not commenting here on the views you have been given, or about the choices that you make.

Great thread.
I also am very glad that I found MN. If I hadn't I don't think I would have had the guts to stand up to the paeditrician who told me to bottle feed my ds when he was only a day old.
Thanks to the knowledge I gained readin about other women's experience, it has never occurred to me to think "I can't be making enough milk" at the times when ds suddenly increases his frequency of feeding, and reach for the formula.
I have a friend that has bottlefed her ds from 3 days old. He is a healthy thriving happy baby on the whole but he has suffered continuous bouts of constipation. Sadly this is fairly common in ffed babies compared to bfed. Having had constipation myself I know how uncomfortable it is and I'm glad that by bfing my ds I am helping to avoid this.
I'm sorry that the facts about the risk of formula makes those who CANNOT ffed upset, truly I am. But highlighting these risks is important - first to ensure that women to make an informed choice but hopefully to encourage them not to turn to ffed at the slightest hurdle but also to hopefully make the companies that produce formula to continue to improve the safety of infant formula for those who CANNOT breastfeed.

Thanks, kiskidee....ABM are an exception, then!

back to the OP, i think i told myself that when dd1 was formual fed as well. i didnt have mumsnet withj dd1+2, and breastfed them for 6-8weeks. with dd3 i had loads of backing from mumsnet from that start and breastfed her for over 2years.

i did (stupidly) start a thread soon after having dd3 about how shcoked iwas about the % of people bottle feeding from birth, as i really had no idea that uptake for breastfeeding was so low. it stil lbothers me now, that breastfeeding isnt the norm, and really it should be. formula isnt anywhere close to breastmilk, despite what formula claims. i think SMA used to say 'closer to breastmilk' on their tins when dd1 was small. closer than what? i think someone said that actual weasel milk is closer, but i cant rememeber if thats true or not lol.

I have not read the whole thread but here's what I don't understand:

We were born with breasts so that we can feed our offspring. How could ANY product ever be better than that.

I am not a bf fanatic and only bf dd till 6 months and am currently bf'ing ds who is 5 months, but I just don't see how anyone can think that breastfeeding is not the best thing for a baby.

Formula companies may have strong marketing, but isn't it obvious that the milk we produce is far superior?

Am I missing something?

BTW I do understand that some people cannot bf for a number of reasons and I have nothing against bottle feeding, I am just surprised that people think it is just as good.

Hillbilly - I agree but there are a lot of myths or half truths:

• to produce 'good' milk you have to eat an incredibly healthy diet and drink loads
• if you have a big / hungry baby your milk won't be enough
• similarly, you can't feed twins
• if you are stressed / ill your milk will dry up

couple that with formula companies marketing their products as "well not breastmilk but in every way other than name..." oh and it's clean and hygenic and you don't have to do all that nasty public feeding stuff and it's not hard to see why people feel that maybe human milk is theoretically superior but not in their case

I'm sitting here with the new NICE guidance on improving the nutrition of pg and bf mothers (I'm at work), and all the risks mentioned here are backed up by that document. The most recent UK infant feeding survey says that exclusive bf was practiced by just 21% of mothers by 6 weeks. And 90% of those who stopped in the first 2 weeks say they would have liked to carry on. Surely much, much more could be and should be done to support new mothers to bf.

Hillbilly, many people have a hard time understanding that - I have posted elsewhere with links to 2 surveys that show something like a third of mothers think formula is the same as or almost the same as breastmilk.

Some women do not have confidence in their own bodies, for all sorts of reasons. Others believe that you need to eat a special diet, to produce adequate milk. Others may know that the biological norm is bound to be better than a substitute, but don't translate that as meaning 'formula has risks', and because formula feeding is the social/cultural norm in their family or among their friends, it is hard to accept formula feeding has an impact on health.

It's interesting that the reasons people may give for favouring formula feeding are different from the ones used in advertising. People will say 'formula means you can see how much the baby is getting' and 'I can't make enough breastmilk to feed him' and 'bottles mean someone else can feed the baby.' Advertising uses none of these (or only indirectly, showing a father with a bottle, maybe). Advertising hijacks the health angle - because this is the one area of concern mothers may have about formula.

Left to themselves, without legislation to curtail their claims, formula manufacturers go pretty crazy on the health 'benefits' of formula. In the UK, where there is legislation, they fight it, and push, push push to the limit - often breaking the law.

It's effective, and certainly one of the reasons why people find it hard to understand there are risks.

I haven't read all of this thread, but I tried bf and had to give up, I had severe pnd, wasn't eating, sleeping, looking after myself etc. Feeling a bit flat today anyway (for completely different reasons), but feel INCREDIBLY guilty for not succeeding with bf my DD, feel worse now . Especially as DD had a double ear infection last week, I believe if I'd managed to bf beyond the 2 wks I might have given her better protection. I have desperately tried to console myself with the information that ff is 'as close to' breast milk as possible. Looks like I was wrong. How do I cope with this guilt now?

honestly? you get better from your PND, you poor thing. if you weren't well, you weren't well.
it is tough, i know it is, and you have my sympathy. i didn't manage to bf dd exclusively for even 10 days, she was losing weight hand over fist, starting to sleep a lot etc etc, it was very worrying. if i'd been psychic i'd have come on here but i wasn't, i was on my own and very worried and i did what the doctors told me. (which may still have been the right thing, by the way, but i'd have been better equipped to manage mix feeding with MN).

i felt bad about it for a long time, but lots of things helped. dd loved weaning, that was a comfort for starters, and it made me feel a bit better that i couldn't be doing it all wrong. how old is your baby? in such a short time they are on food and milk and all sorts of other things take over.

i'll always regret that i didn't manage to feed dd, and i'll sure as shit give it a good go if i have another baby, but i won't feel guilty for it. nor do i think this thread should in any way make you feel guilty. you weren't well. if you'd fallen down the stairs and been in a body cast you'd have to have been a heroic character to breastfeed, well, PND is shattering and you just couldn't do the bfing thing this time.

but next time, maybe? in the meantime, no guilt, it's not getting you anywhere but ill again.

Hopey, I think a lot of mothers understand these feelings, and they don't always refer just to feeding. I think just about every parent does something they regret with hindsight - it's part of being a parent, learning from experience, and just trying to do your best at the time.

'Guilt' is something you feel when you could have done/not done something, and you ended up doing it/not doing it out of malice, or spite, knowing it was wrong.

I would be amazed if any of that applied to you in your tired, depressed and pressured state.

It's understandable to feel sad, though, and to draw links between what happened and your dd's ear infection - of course she may have had the ear infection anyway, as you know.

Part of growing as a parent is to differentiate between 'guilt' and 'regret' - 'regret' does not involve self-blame, and it allows us to learn and maybe do something different next time, if there is a next time. If there isn't a next time, then 'regret' also helps us place the incident in the past, where it belongs...and to move on.

To tell you, as some people might, that it 'doesn't matter' that you did not breastfeed for long, is to ignore and deny your genuine feelings, and to treat you like a child. It's just as bad to pretend that formula milk is a close match to breastmilk - that doesn't help anyone, especially people who may need the full picture in order to make a decision for themselves.

Breastfeeding is not the only way of mothering and caring. You can do this beautifully with formula and bottles, as I am sure you know.

I have got tears in my eyes just now reading your posts, thank you. seriously. DD is 6 months and doing well, enjoying weaning. Won't be having anymore dc now. She's our 3rd.

I do think if I'd had more support, it may have been possible tp have continued... but DH has a paralysed arm so I felt I ought to try and carry on with house and kids as much as poss, despite c-section. He did try his best to be as supportive as he could, he was so so worried about me at the time

Glad to help, Hopey....and all the best for the future. It's ok to regret stuff - I have an unfeasibly long list of all sorts of things I wish I had done/not done. You learn from it all, I think. That's life....a mix.