Is anybody else's Boots putting up irritating signs by the infant formula?

[CorrieDale]

It's along the lines of: We're terribly sorry we can't offer you discounts on infant formula but these horrid regulations have made discounting illegal.

Is it a national thing or just my local branch? I have tried sabotage tactics when I see them, but wonder if there is anything else I can do.

In my classes, flowery, I am upfront. I share the latest stats with them - the stats show that a third (or something) of women who start off breastfeeding have stopped completely by four months. We talk about why that might be, and how to get help with problems.

I am far from the only NCT bfc who does classes that way, and the very fact bfcs exist is a demonsration of the fact that bf is not always a breeze. In my experience, everyone knows someone who had a hard time, too, and I encourage this to be shared in the class.

This is acknowledging the reality - that breastfeeding in our society is somethiing most women will need some sort of practical or emotional support with.

Am I really supposed to acknowldge reality with a formula feeding demo in order to show I know many women will end up doing it? Even though I am using up time to teach them a string of instructions they may not even remember properly? Just to prove I don't judge them if they use formula? Instead I tell them - 'NCT does not judge you if you use formula' ....I hope they believe and remember that!

SM, there is no right to buy infant formula at a discount in the UK.

Tiktok, can we clone you, please?

i dont get what riles in the OP. so some mums buy formula- and.....well so what?why would the mere visibility of signs or marketing relating to it rile or invoke reaction to "sabeotage tactics"

Tiktok you don't need to do a demo in order to prove you know ff is a reality, no.

I am talking about a general attitude, not a need for a demonstration particularly. I ignored it personally and let it wash over me but whatever may or may not have been said at my classes, I know we all came away thinking there would be huge amounts of judgement if we ff either to start with or later on. Maybe we were wrong but that's definitely what we came away feeling I'm afraid. The NCT teacher we had was very good and supportive generally, the breastfeeding counsellor was intimidating to say the least, (although very knowledgeable and helpful), and despite me explaining my reasons for ff (which I definitely felt I had to do like a naughty schoolgirl explaining why she hasn't done her homework), still pushed breastfeeding at me, and then quizzed my DH at a reunion about it. He gave her short shrift I am pleased to report.

flowery, I feel bad about this....I can't believe it was the intention of the class teacher or bfc to indicate judgement either then or in the future, but if you 'felt' otherwise they can't have done their job right. OTOH, please accept that people have very mixed feelings about using formula and will often see or feel criticism and judgement where there truly is none. Occasionally, you see something to this effect on mumsnet.

Very, very occasionally, I have had someone in a class who knows she is going to bottle feed from the start, and as she is sitting there, in the breastfeeding class, I might feel I can gently ask why - there is a lot of mis-information out there and people do think they 'can't' breastfeed because (for example) they are using medication. It's none of anyone's biz why, if they choose to keep it private of course, so any questioning should be tentative, but people do share 'stuff' in an antenatal class.

She should not have 'pushed' breastfeeding at you, still less quizzed your dh. I can't excuse that at all.

That is odd to have a breastfeeding counsellor push breastfeeding at you in such an unasked for way. I understood their remit was to help women to figure out what they wanted to do themselves and to give relevent information when asked ?

I so didn't mean to get into all of that!

I know what you mean about people sometimes feeling guilty because of their own feelings, and I think there is some of that. That's not me, I made my decision for good reasons and refused to feel guilty as I know ff would be best for my DS - I had no problem sharing that so that was fine. But I did feel I had to 'explain myself' and 'justify' my decision to the bf counsellor which I didn't think was on. I really didn't feel saying I didn't want to discuss it (if that had been the case) was an option.

I havn't got time to read all this thread but personally I can't see the problem with discounting formula milk. Most mothers are intelligent enougth to know that breatfeeding is best but in some cases it is not succesful or possible and formula is very expensive.

PM1, there are some answers to that on the thread you're too busy to read

Hunker, can we clone you please?

No, it wouldn't work well. I would LOATHE myself

ScottishMummy, I think you need to read the thread. However, this is what I said earlier:

It's the wording of it that is so near the knuckle. No, it doesn't actually say 'horrid regulations' but it does make it clear that were it not for the Regulations, then the caring and sharing Boots store would be offering their valued customers a discount. Which will, of course, engender a negative response to the Regulations in those parents who didn't already know of them and, more importantly, the reasons they're in place.

I also pointed out that if Boots were really so keen on giving bargains to the child-raising masses, then they'd double-discount nappies or wipes or baby food. And then Tiktok said:

"There is nothing in the law to stop Boots doing a permanent discount on infant formula, right across the board. It's special offers and incentives that are outlawed, and drawing attention to them.

So if they were really, really sorry, they would just knock a few squids off the price of every brand and every type and keep that price permanantly low."

So as you see, I have no wish to sabotage any mother's desire for a bargain, but I do want stores and formula manufacturers to stop edging their way around the baby milk regulations. Or even bulldozing their way through them.

thanks for clarifying but i dont personally find it irks me

When I first had my dd1 and ended up ff, I asked the reason why I didn't receive a voucher which was given when the customer spent £10 or over, as I had bought 2 tubs of formula (I was unaware of the law regarding incentives etc), the lady serving me said something along the lines of' "I'm sorry, but we can't include first milks in any promotions or points schemes, due to the regulations that exist around baby milk", I didn't point out to her that in apologising she was actually reinforcing a negative response to the regulations, as I just assumed that she was being polite and providing decent customer service. I'm thinking that I probably wasn't the only person that asked in these circumstances, and that is why boots felt the need to put a sign up.

I also had a lot of trouble getting help with feeding issues, when I first switched to ff. There is more to bottle feeding than just making up the bottles, my dd1 would scream every time I tried to feed her (bf or ff), but when I asked the HV for help they would just talk about the problems that I had had with b'feeding. I do think once a decision is made by a mother to ff then there should be somewhere else to ask for help other than the formula companies.

I'm not sure whether antenatal classes are the best place for demonstrations of anything. The bfeeding class I went to mentioned sore nipples, but not thrush, tongue ties, bleeding blisters and a baby that screams like blue murder whenever she comes anywhere close to your boobs(I really wasn't very good at bfeeding), but then I guess they didn't want to put anyone off bfeeding!It seems to me that most of the people I know who ff, really wanted to bfeed but stopped because of similar problems to me, so surely the efforts of people and associations that want to help improve the b'feeding figures in this country should be campaigning for help to be offered to these people first and foremost (trying to get hospitals to offer better bfeeding support from the very beginning, rather than a cursory visit from a midwife in the middle of the night for example), rather than focussing on the minutae of formula promotion.

Sorry, bit longwinded, and badly written, had to keep getting up for trick or treaters!

HJ, you say:

"so surely the efforts of people and associations that want to help improve the b'feeding figures in this country should be campaigning for help to be offered to these people first and foremost (trying to get hospitals to offer better bfeeding support from the very beginning, rather than a cursory visit from a midwife in the middle of the night for example), rather than focussing on the minutae of formula promotion."

I feel very strongly that women should have decent access to good information and support about the way they feed their baby, whether bfeed or ffeed. But that's across the board, I don't just want to concentrate on one thing, because it's far more complex than that.

So I am on a committee at my local maternity hospital to help improve things for women there (we're aiming for Babyfriendly status), after I had a less-than-satisfactory experience there.

I also donated expressed breastmilk to a local milk bank, to help women who had prem or sick babies use breastmilk rather than formula, if they so chose.

I am also setting up a website which I intend to be somewhere that women can come and talk about their experiences, what worked for them and how they felt about their feeding experiences. I hope that it will become an excellent source of decent, non-judgemental information and support - it's early days yet though, so it remains to be seen!

But I can also care about formula promotion and the mixed messages women get at a vulnerable time. The formula companies exploit those vulnerabilities cynically and nobody should be OK with that. I appreciate other people have different priorities though, but it's something I feel strongly about, so I will continue to write and talk about it.

I don't say all this for a pat on the back. I say it because I don't like being told what I can and can't care about and which thing should outrank the others - I can care equally about all women getting the best feeding experience possible and being able to make a choice, not having a "choice" forced upon her through lack of decent support from the very people who are meant to be supporting them.

I am sorry that you believe that I would tell anybody what they can or cannot care about. I wasn't directing my comments at anyone in particular, and whilst I too care about the issues surrounding formula (TBH I don't think there will be an end to the "cynical" marketing until formula production and distribution is taken out of the hands of private business) I think that those issues are separate to the ones surrounding the lack of support for b'feeding mothers and sometimes cloud the issue.

I am full of admiration for the work that you do to support b'feeding, and have read helpful posts that you have written in several threads helping strugglers like myself.

S'OK, HJ

I think they're massively interlinked though - the people who are meant to be doing the bf support are the ones who have the most marketing directed at them - the midwives, doctors and HVs. Infant formula ads, more insidiously-worded than anything the general public can see (well, unless they pick up a journal...).

So you get health professionals who think that formula's pretty much the same as bmilk and they've seen lots of babies thrive on it and nobody ever exclusively feeds bmilk anyway, so why would anyone bother trying?

So if the people doing the supporting are often not all that fussed about it, it'll never get better.

But that sort of view ignores totally the way women feel about breastfeeding, the desperate yearning to do it, the feeling of loss and grief when it doesn't work out. Obviously not all women feel like this, but how dare the midwife/doctor/HV make the decision for them without finding out how they DO feel by saying, "Oh, never mind, just give him a bottle"?

Following on from HV attitude that formula is just as good as breastmilk.

My experience at my local First Mums Club which was several weeks of classes aimed at early care of babies for PFB's.

The HV really upset me by repeating thoughout the classes about 'when you give the baby formula do X or Y...' and 'bottle feeding is good enough for my children, why bother breastfeeding' and 'well, you CAN breastfeed but no baby can live just on breastmilk until 6 months old' and many other gems ;)

I can laugh now but at the time, I felt 'what is the point in breastfeeding day and night with sore, cracked nipples..if there was no point' I knew logically it was best but hormonal and upset I nearly gave up due to that one woman making me feel terribly stupid for trying to breastfeed

Luckily I joined a fantastic support group (which I miss terrible now I have moved) and they sorted out my latch and supported my decision to breastfeed.

So in a long winded way, I wanted to say HV and other medical staff have a far bigger influence than I ever thought and if they are educated that will lead to many women getting the support they need.

I know you are right about the marketing of formula to the health professionals, and I do not in any way agree with HV etc 'pushing' formula, or undermining b'feeding by suggesting that f'feeding is just as good. I suppose I am speaking from my own personal experience, which was that despite huge amounts of help (some of it good and some of it not so good) I still failed at b'feeding (twice!), but even when I had made the decision to completely ffeed ( I bottlefed EBM for a while), I got absolutely no help with ffeeding. When I asked at my local health centre whether it would be possible to start some sort of support group which would involve all types of feeding the HV told me that they had a breastfeeding group and that they couldn't be seen to encourage ffeeding and that there probably wasn't a need for it anyway.

I'm fairly new to MN and find it is very hard to talk about things like this, it is a pretty emotive subject, and I know that I often get defensive about ffeeding, I guess because I failed at b'feeding, so I have to buy formula and make decisions on which brand based on advertising, because as I think you said on another thread, there is a lack of decent unbiased information out there. Also everything I write seems to come out as a great long statement of certainty, and it is such a complex subject, I know that I am not that certain about it! I don't want to not get involved in talking about these things though, as I think that discussions about bfeeding need to involve the people who have failed at it, as well as the people who have succeeded, because otherwise I suppose we won't learn why women fail so often.

I apologise for not being able to write a post without it turning into a thesis, I have got to practice the art of the short, pithy comment, and learn how to use the smiley faces.

hazeyjane, I don't think a funded separate support group for women who use formula is appropriate either, but I do think women in this situation need support....there is a great group on the web called MOBI, or Mothers Overcoming Breastfeeding Issues. It's not for people to have a hate session about breastfeeders, or to argue that ff is just as good, or anything like that. It just accepts that many women have a lot of sadness when switching from breast to formula. I quote:

"MOBI stands for Mothers Overcoming Breastfeeding Issues. It was founded by and for mothers who grieved their unsuccessful breastfeeding relationships. They were surprised and comforted to find other mothers had similar experiences. Their mutual support enabled some mothers to find solutions or closure."

Find it here

Sorry, HJ, I realise you were not asking for a support group for ff mothers...I read it again!

But "some sort of support group which would involve all types of feeding " is just a mother and baby group, isn't it?

hazeyjane - i have a db who was/is not "good" at breastfeeding, formula feeding, or solid feeding. He is not ill and is gaining weight, albeit VERY slowly, so I've been told that there is nothing really that can or needs to be done to help me with this issue, an issue which is as frustrating and troublesome to me as breastfeeding problems seem to the women who have them.

All along I too have wished that there was some type of support out there, as once I stopped breastfeeding I had no idea where to go. Mother-baby groups aren't particularly helpful, as I find that the vast majority of mothers I meet have enthusiastic eaters (or at least eaters) and just don't get what I'm dealing with.

That sounds dreadful HazyJane. It all sounds a bit of a mess with a lot of mothers not receiving any help whether they bf or ff.
I can't see why there is anything wrong with offering general feeding classes. I can see something wrong witholding information on how to do something when it is being requested.
I am so glad I had my first baby over 20 years ago. No health professionals baulked giving group demonstrations of various aspects of baby care including bottle feeding. I admit I didn't think some of them were the best demos but they at least gave me an idea to build on and ask questions about.
When I'd had my baby and had some problems with breastfeeding in the early days my community midwife was fantastic and would stay with me until she was satisfied that I was happy with what I was doing. Her advice and help stuck with me through the next 8 babies.

I suppose the thing was that where I was living there was a b'feeding support group, and a b'feeding section as part of the post natal sessions at the local health centre, and obviously questions about formula would be inappropriate at these sessions. The only mother and baby groups that I was aware of at the time were really for slightly older babies, rather than those manic early weeks of not knowing what the hell is going on. I have however just noticed in my local doctors (we have moved since having our 2 dds) a sign for an NCT new mothers group which welcomes questions about all types of feeding ( I saw it about 5 minutes after reading your post Tiktok!), which is great, and probably just what I needed at the time.