Is anybody else's Boots putting up irritating signs by the infant formula?

[CorrieDale]

It's along the lines of: We're terribly sorry we can't offer you discounts on infant formula but these horrid regulations have made discounting illegal.

Is it a national thing or just my local branch? I have tried sabotage tactics when I see them, but wonder if there is anything else I can do.

No, cute pics are not banned, though under the WHO code 'idealised' pics are banned, and they can't use pics of infants under UK law either, hence the bunnies etc.

I don't object to bunnies, especially - my point was that choosing between cute pics is what mothers have to do, in the absence of good health and nutritional information.

Oh I see, ok then.

If someone is choosing which formula to buy, is there way companies could differentiate themselves then? Agree there should be good health and nutrition information, but if one brand is better health-wise than another they would say that wouldn't they? What could they legitimately do?

I dunno, flowery....I am uncomfortable with the idea of commercial concerns having to market health benefits. If something is important to infant health, then it should be in all formulas, so all formula fed babies can have it (we're talking abut the sole source of nutrition in many cases, and I think there should be a level playing field...just as if we think immunisation is important, the best available formula is offered routinely to all infants).

Given that this is not going to happen without some sort of political and economic earthquake, I would be ok with health claims that were verified by an indpendent source, and with parents given as much easily-understood information as they want, so they can decide if their baby's immune system is more important than his digestion, or if there is really a great difference between different brands or not.

Then they can put teddies or ducks or whatever on the pack!

That is, the best available formula of vacciine is available to all infants.

I have seen those signs in Boots and think that they're completely legitimate (and no I don't work for Boots or hold their stock).

Boots has a points system -- you buy something for 7 pounds and you get 7 points which translates to 7p off of a future purchase (or something like that). The point system applies to just about everything in the store, including baby products EXCEPT 0-6 month formula. Sometimes there are signs in the baby section saying "double points on baby items" or sometimes there are signs announcing general promotions such buy 2 get 1 free etc that apply to baby goods other than the infant formula. It makes perfect sense to me that consumers are explicitly informed that these promotions do not apply to the infant formula. Why should it make any difference that they reference government regulations? (And one poster above even mentioned that such a reference might be a positive one with respect to affects on breastfeeding rates. If it didn't reference the gov't would some people complain that Boots was unfairly taking the high road when in actuality it is compelled by the gov't to do so?)

Some threads on this topic have made me think harder about the issues regarding the business of formula but I think that ones like this are posted merely in the hope of eliciting outraged responses and add very little to the overall discussion.

"fm is expensive and the average baby gets through 5-6 tins a week,"

• are you kidding?? DS3 is a HUGE baby and drinks ridiculously large amounts of formula on a daily basis (6-8 8oz) bottles a day............BUT we only use (roughly) 8 tins a MONTH!

5-6 tins a week !

Blimey, the pro b'feeding lobbyists would love that. Sorry whoever posted that but you have been misled.

I'd say that at best we got through one pack a week on average so that's about £7 a week or maybe £10 with a few readymades thrown in too so £1-£1.50 a day plus no breastpads or kamillosan needed so a saving there. (I know I haven't factored in the electricity costs).

In response to my earlier post someone said that the formula manufacturers are withholding the information about formula milk. Let's face it, the stuff has to have passed stringent UK foodstuffs testing or it would not be allowed on the shelf, particularly as this is infant feeding we are talking about. I was referring to the avoidance by NHS health professionals/NCT ante natal class teachers in respect of teaching how to make up bottles of formula milk safely. All of them gave me a different reason for not wanting/being allowed to help in this matter so it was obvious that they've been advised not to assist in the hope that it will make breastfeeding an safer option for a mum who is concerned about getting it wrong but they are not supposed to admit to the underlying reason or are uncomfortable in admitting it. If there was one particular reason they would be happy to be quoted on then they'd all be quoting the same one. Its dead easy when you get the hang of it but you have to learn whilst in a sleep deprived state aided by tiny printed instructions on the formula milk packs and that's wrong.

I have no objection to information being provided on either breast feeding or bottle feeding so long as it is factually correct and has been rigorously tested and not just selected from a host of other statistics just because it suits the aims of the government.

fedup, you say, 'In response to my earlier post someone said that the formula manufacturers are withholding the information about formula milk. Let's face it, the stuff has to have passed stringent UK foodstuffs testing or it would not be allowed on the shelf, particularly as this is infant feeding we are talking about.'

Of course it has to be shown to be contaminant free (and occasionally 'bad; batches get through and have to be recalled) and produced in a hygeinic way. But the health claims do not have to be tested - I know it sounds crazy, but it's true. Any 'novel' ingredients are tested for safety, and for whether they compromise growth, but beyond that, vague claims like 'supports your baby's immune defences' do not have to be tested....because, I suppose, they are so vague.

' I was referring to the avoidance by NHS health professionals/NCT ante natal class teachers in respect of teaching how to make up bottles of formula milk safely. All of them gave me a different reason for not wanting/being allowed to help in this matter '

I can tell you what the NCT reason is: because all-group demos of bottle feeding are not safe or effective. For this reason they are not permitted under the Baby Friendly Initiative and as NCT supports that, we don't do 'em. The other reason is that it normalises bottle feeding, and normalising undermines breastfeeding. The best (ie safest and most effective) place for someone to be demo'd a bottle is one to one, at home.

'but you have to learn whilst in a sleep deprived state aided by tiny printed instructions on the formula milk packs and that's wrong. ' I quite agree. A demo shown to you two months before is not likely to help much, though. If yiu need a demo, then your midwife or HV should show you and give you a chance to practise it in your own kitchen.

And fedup, info about formula milk is very difficult to get.

How many parents know what the diff is between 'stage 1' and 'stage2' and 'follow on', for instance?

You won't find it anywhere easily.

the person who posted that came back and said she realised she had misremembered !

Well then perhaps they should just stop having any blurb on the packaging?
Becuse people do not choose to formula feed because it says "supports babies immune systems" or whatever on the tin.
Those who wish to formula feed would still do so.

fed up, i did retract that statement. i ff ds and got a bit dizzy

xpost lulu

I agree with whatever Tiktok said

Oh, Jeremy, for goodness sake....it's not about women choosing to formula feed because of whatever is on the tin. It's to do with giving as much information as necessary about the flippin product, and not having the info reduced to a teddy, a slogan, a spurious health claim and minuscule (possibly unsafe) instructions on use.

Parents who want to formula feed, or to consider formula feeding, should of course not be faced with a blank package - though they might as well, for the level of info on it now is pretty poor.

Women who want/need to formula feed will not be affected by having more, and better, information, will they? And those who are ambivalent will not be misled or confused or blinded by marketing, and will make a decision based on better evidence. And 'better evidence' does not include a meaningless blurb.

What on earth is there to argue about with that?

at Dragon

It would be nice to have you instead of Mr tiktok, I think!

Snoozer, that is not why I posted! The question was asked because if it's a national thing, then I'd be seeking advice from Baby Milk Action. If it's just stores here and there doing it, including my local one, then I can write to the Manager to complain. I didn't want to just elicit outraged responses.

However, to answer your main point, I have no beef at all with Boots stating (as it does in several places - I shop there a lot and have a card) that points are not available on infant formula, or that infant formula is excluded from various offers. What I object to is the apology for not being able to make such offers available because of the Regulations. I just cannot see how that could be in any way seen as a neutral stating of the facts. The implication is that the Regulations are disbenefitting the consumer. If you don't see that, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

a bit of a tangent from the op, but sincerely, I'm interested to know:

(1)To me, the logic behind the argument that bottle-feeding isn't/shouldn't be addressed in NCT classes because it normalizes bottle-feeding and undermines breastfeeding sounds very similar to the logic of the argument that you shouldn't teach teenagers about condoms because it implies that teenagers are or should be having sex (normalizes teenage sex) which undermines the much preferable approach of abstinence. When really, if you're going to do it (underage sex or bottlefeed) shouldn't you at least have as much info as possible? Does anyone else agree?

(2) Tiktok - why are all-group demos of bottle feeding considered neither safe nor effective? Why not safe and why less effective than anything else that is taught in the classes?

Might sound similar logic, snoozer, but it is totally different!

Of course women should have as much information about feeding as they wish, but if they are planning to breastfeed (and the huge majority of women in the UK plan to breastfeed these days) , why should they get info about bottle feeding antenatally in a group with others who also plan to breastfeed? That normalises formula feeding, by undermining this plan to breastfeed - almost like saying 'we know you want to breastfeed, but formula feeding is what most of you will do, so gather round and watch me demo this'....what on earth is that doing to their confidence (and we read here every day, confidence is very important when it comes to bf)? If anyone wants an individual demo of making up a bottle, then of course they should be able to ask for this, and ideally, have it demo'd to them at home, in their own kitchen, where they can have a go themselves.

To return to your questionable analogy, teaching abstinence has been shown to be ineffective at delaying first sexual intercourse, so why this would be 'preferable' in any circumstances, I don't know. Yes, teaching about condoms normalises teenage sex. This is only a bad thing if you think teaching abstinence is a viable option, which it isn't.

Making up a bottle of formula can be done unsafely - there are rules about water temperature, cleanliness, how and when to add the water and so on. Doing a 'watch me do this' demo has been shown (can't give you a reference, sorry, and you'll just have to believe me!) to result in an ineffective transmission of the information - that is, people recall it inaccurately. This is why it is not safe, and why it differs from other aspects of antenatal education, which are not expecting you to remember a whole load of instructions just from seeing someone do it.

In addition, common sense shows us that demo'ing a sequence of actions several weeks, if not months, before someone is expected to do it for themselves is not going to be a sure way of knowing the watchers are going to retain this complex knowledge.

ugh - just typed long response/explanation and the page disappeared when i hit "post".

too tired to type again now (will try tomorrow) but I cannot bear to let one thing go unsaid:

I did NOT mean that teaching abstinence is preferable to teaching about safe sex. I meant that most people would prefer teenagers to abstain from sex, yet realistically some will not, therefore it's very important to teach them about safe sex, despite some people's concern that doing so will cause teenagers to have sex if they weren't already doing so or planning to do so.

Likewise, I don't believe that teaching people about proper bottle-feeding techniques will cause them to bottle-feed if they weren't already going to to so.

Snoozer, it's a waste of time teaching a group about how to bottlefeed.

Imagine you're going to breastfeed. You're 35 weeks pregnant and at an antenatal class. You've hit it off with the couple next to you and you're swapping addresses and phone numbers by the time it gets to the bottle-making demo. You realise you were a year apart in school, perhaps, and you are trying to work out if you have mutual friends.

Then you realise it's the end of the demo. Doesn't matter that you didn't pay attention, you're going to breastfeed...

Then, seven weeks later, your baby's born - two weeks late. You struggle with bfing for the first month, then decide to move to formula. Luckily you've seen it demonstrated, nearly three months previously, when you weren't paying attention...

So, could the demo time have been put to better use? Exploring feelings about breastfeeding, perhaps? Or talking about where to get support after the baby's born? The mum who was going to breastfeed might have paid better attention to that and written down bf supportline numbers as well as that of her new friend.

Then, if she did bottlefeed in the end and felt she needed a demo, she could ask - and the HV couldn't cluck and say "you had this demo at your parentcraft class - weren't you paying attention?!"

What do you think?

Corriedale,

You may wish to write to head office at Boots too:

Try the Chief Executive: Richard Baker D90 West Thane Road Nottingham NG90 1BS

snoozer - you are missing the point.

This is not about whether people are being 'caused' to bottle feed when they would otherwise have breastfed.

There is never a direct cause and effect like this.

But antenatal classes should take care not to undermine the choice to breastfeed. Breastfeeding is quite fragile in our society, and is vulnerable to many influences, including the perception that it isn't normal, and I really don't think the health service should be part of that.

And in addition to that, the flippin lesson on how to do it would not be effective and might even lead to someone making up a bottle incorrectly.

People who need or want a demo should get one - of course they should. But not in a group, not in an antenatal class, and not weeks or months before they actually need the information.

I am at a loss to see why this is in anyway controversial, I really am.

Hunker's description of the reality of the class situation is spot on, too.

And just to show you again, snoozer, that your argument goes up a blind alley - group demos of bottles or condoms normalise the practice of using them, as we both agree.

Your point is that condom demos are worth it, because the teens concerned need the info, even if the demo normalises something that others think they shouldn't be doing. I'd agree. We can be pretty sure the condom info is safe, though whether it is effective or not, I am not sure (I know research shows abstinence ed. is not), but it's probably not actively unsafe. The timing of the info is appropriate, too, because teens are accessing this information at a time very close to or even contempraneous to, the time they need it.

My point is that the bottle demo also normalises, but the parents don't need the info at that time, and also because they plan to bf and because the info on bottles is not effective, and could be as a result unsafe.

Now do you understand ?

Our NCT ante natal class teacher said it was W.H.O. regulations preventing her from demonstrating and only one person had asked so it would have been a one-to-one demonstration required anyway. The NCT lady had exclusively breastfed her children so she'd probably have been no more informative than the instructions on the side of the pack anyway. The hospital midwife said they were a "baby friendly unit" and therefore wouldn't be doing a demonstration of making up bottles. Ready made bottles were however freely available for bottle feeding mums during their stay in hospital.

All the stuff you learn at ante-natal is subject to the same time delay before being put into practice and subject to the distractions mentioned by hunker so I don't buy that line of reasoning either.

I remember someone posting some time ago that they knew of a parent (in a sleep deprived state presumably) who had gone out and bought Actimel, I think, rather than Aptamil because of the lack of information provided by the NHS on formula milks and a vague recollection of a product name. That's dangerous, the NHS should have provided enough information to have prevented that happening.

It is possible to inform people of what is available without making a recommendation or endorsing the use of the products or even a particular brand, it's just a skill that needs to be learned during training. Lots of professional people have to do this almost daily as, for legal reasons, they should not nor should they act in a way that could appear to be, actually influencing the decision of another person.

Midwives could demonstrate making up bottles before bottle feeding mums leave hospital, by that point if you are planning on using formula milk you will be highly motivated to pay attention and putting it into practice probably within 24hrs. H.V.'s could demonstrate one to one if requested by parents who left hospital breastfeeding but have subsequantly decided that they want to use formula in addition or instead of breastfeeding.

This will not happen though, supressing information relating to formula milk/bottlefeeding can be quite effective in raising breastfeeding numbers.

Don't get me wrong I'm not anti breastfeeding, I'd support any parent in any way, no matter which way they had ended up feeding their baby. I just think the people who are up in arms over these Boots notices are breastfeeding parents sticking their noses into the business of bottle feeding parents and they should just back off or get their teeth looked at by a dentist.

"Itchy teeth, my arse" as Jim Royle would say.