Is anybody else's Boots putting up irritating signs by the infant formula?

[CorrieDale]

It's along the lines of: We're terribly sorry we can't offer you discounts on infant formula but these horrid regulations have made discounting illegal.

Is it a national thing or just my local branch? I have tried sabotage tactics when I see them, but wonder if there is anything else I can do.

FUWW, it's not about suppressing information relating to ffeeding.

It's about ensuring that parents have access to the information when they need it. And it's about ensuring that the information they DO have access to is decent, not the advertising blurb, brand-building, lifestyle shite that the ff companies would have you swallow.

What part of that is controversial?

Why are you so keen that parents get potentially harmful demonstrations of ffeeding antenatally anyway?

fedup - yes, you can take WHO and UNICEF as meaning the same thing in this case, as the Baby Friendly initiative is linked with the WHO work on supporting breastfeeding, though I hope you have misremebered anyone talking about 'regulations'.

You say that the argument about 'timing' doesn't hold water because 'all the stuff' at antenatal class has the same time delay on it. This is simply not true. The information given in an antenatal class is not normally a list of instructions to remember accurately, or else....so the proscription on bottle demos being at the wrong time is not the same as anything else that goes on in an antenatal class.

Much antenatal class information is about pregnancy anyway - what's happening to you now - and in NCT classes at least, focus is on confidence building throughout the course as much as anything else. The odd thing that does need instructional guidance such as massage techniques or different positions or relaxation is practised actively by the participants, and many, many times....otherwise it just doesn't go in!

I sort of agree with you about Actimel and Aptamil - I think it's rare that a mother, however sleep-deprived, would think those little pots are infant formula milk, but I have heard of two instances where the mother's partner, sent out for Aptamil, brought back the wrong stuff, and one case where a mother with learning disabilities actually did try to give her baby the Actimel. I don't think the antenatal class routinely trotting out a brand name with a 'get the right stuff!' message is the answer to this very rare situation, though. Better postnatal care might help here.

I think, like you, any bottle feeding mother should be helped with a demo and a practice before she goes back home - it should be one to one, and there could be a follow up in her own kitchen if appropriate. Why will this not happen? It's a simple and sensible and not very time consuming way of ensuring safer feeding.

Not doing a group demo in an antenatal class is not 'suppressing information' about formula feeding. In fact, I would like fuller information about formula feeding to be available at all times - people need to know the hazards of using it, they need to know the differences in the formulations, they need to know its potential impact on breastfeeding, and they need to know how little credence they can give to vague slogans, and they need to know that 'Carelines' run by the manufacturers are another tool of marketing.

I don't feel especially strongly myself about Boots' silly little notice, except I don't believe they are 'sorry' they can't offer a discount (see my previous post about the fact they could!).

"Now do you understand ?" Tiktok - What I understand is that (1) you and I have different opinions on this and (2) I do not have to automatically defer to yours. I am not a child and it irks me when you speak to me like one.

I actually think that you misconstrue my analogy. I will state it differently:

I do not think that teaching about safe sex methodology will cause teenagers to have sex if they wouldn't have otherwise. However, if they do have sex at some point at least they will know how to do it safely. I believe that teaching about condom use leads to more condom use - it does not lead to more sex.

Likewise, I do not think that teaching about safe bottle feeding methodology will cause mothers to bottlefeed if they wouldn't have otherwise. However, if they do bottlefeed at some point at least they will know how to do it safely. I believe that teaching about safe bottle feeding would lead to safer bottle feeding - not to more people bottle feeding.

I'm not going to address the rest of your points - I'll agree to disagree if that's ok with you.

sboozer, you're forgotten that the function of a is to lighten a statement, and to avoid any appearence of rudeness in an otherwise rude statement. Sorry if I offended.

I am going to have to repeat what I explained for you twice already, nevertheless. Like you, I do not believe that a group bottle demo causes mothers to bottle feed if they would otherwise have breastfed. So please stop repeating that this is what I think.

I do believe that the demo normalises bottle feeding, and while it does not lead directly to a change of mind, normalising and assuming bottle feeding contributes to the fragility of the decision to breastfeed in our society - so mothers breastfeed with less confidence, and become more dependent on the presence of good breastfeeding support, which as we see every day on mumsnet, is a matter of complete chance. This has a particular effect on the mothers who are a bit ambivalent, and who would like to breastfeed but who are not all that sure, and who cannot rely on good support from family or friends or their postnatal healthcare workers.

It does this without making the decision to bottle feed any safer at all - the group demo is not an effective teaching tool, so parents (and babies) end up worse off. I am all in favour of individual demos, which are likely to be safer and which will give some supervised hands-on practice to the parents at a time when they are likely to be able to use the info correctly.

'At least they will know how to do it safely' you say. They won't. And that's why it should not be done in a group.

Not sboozer, snoozer, sorry

Snoozer, do you not agree with my description of a typical antenatal class then?

I got lots of info at my antenatal classes with DS1 that I didn't need until after the birth - bathing, breastfeeding support line info (which I'd forgotten about by the time he was actually born), sleeping, pain relief, positions/breathing etc (all of which I'd forgotten by the time he was born - not that he mattered given I had a CS though LOL), even the breastfeeding information I was given was all but forgotten by the time I'd actually had him and was getting down to breastfeeding (hence the reason I didn't bother with classes for DS2 or 3 even though i'd forgotten loads - as I figured if I was going to forget it all again by the time they arrived it was a waste of my time).

And incidentally (and I know this is contradicting what I've just said) - when exactly after the birth should the mother be shown how to make up bottles? I mean if they've already decided they're going to FF then even 1 day after the birth is too late to be shown how to do it safely. And because we're not allowed to have leaflets "promoting" bottle feeding even the Bounty pack which you get in hospital doesn't have any information on how to make up bottles - plenty on breastfeeding, but nothing for the bottle feeders .

QOQ - Oh, I'm sure there is some fabulously convoluted reason as to why this would actually be damaging for somebody.....somewhere.....

I think the point is it's group demonstrations that aren't a good idea.

I would imagine that if you ask whoever does your antenatal classes, they'll show you one-on-one.

JV, why so sneery? Please don't, it's unbecoming

sorry to be simplistic about this but how many people really need to be shown how to make up a bottle? the instructions are all on the tin. it is really about as complicated as making a cup of Horlicks.
I understand if people have difficulty with literacy, but in that case the majority of people will have someone who can show them and the visiting midwife will show you if you ask her.

It's exasperation Hunker.....doesn't feel good either tbh

Harpsi - you are right, I cant imagine why anyone would need to be shown - but why does it have to be something that shouldn't be allowed?

As with almost all these discussions on what should and shouldn't be allowed when it comes to formula, it's the inferences that grate.

The instructions are on the tin, HC.

The fact that they don't tell the full story is another...well, story.

JV, I'm pretty exasperated too, really!

JV, I had a group demo at my antenatal classes. The midwife told us she wasn't allowed to do it, but since most of us would end up giving formula at some point, she would show us.

Nice, huh? What a lot of faith she had in us.

The fact you forgot all the stuff about bathing (why on earth is this demo'd at the antenatal class - how daft) and breastfeeding, Queen, shows that group instructions are not the best way to teach some things. In fact, NCT breastfeeding counsellors work on the premise that the breastfeeding class is less a means of conveying memorable information and more a confidence building exercise and a way to tell the class 'if you need help, we are here'.

You forgot it all by the time your baby arrived - par for the course and proof, if it were needed, that a group demo of bottle feeding has to be about the most unsafe way of doing it. All people are left with are some unreliable memories and the normalising effect we have already discussed.

One to one teaching is fine and necessary for anyone using formula who feels less than confident about how to do it. This is better than a leaflet given to everyone, which also normalises and cannot take the place of one to one help. I feel the same about bf leaflets - good that they normalise, but they can't replace real help if someone has a problem.

Jeremy, don;t you believe that group demos can be unsafe and normalising, then?

Lacking in faith , yes and more than a bit annoying probably.
But statistically wouldn't she be correct?

The thing is though the instructions on the side aren't really very helpful - I mean - boil the kettle, wait for 1/2hr make the bottle up and use straight away..........sounds simple - except after 1/2hr the water is still WAY to hot for any baby to drink it!

And I forgot all of what she said anyway, even though I paid attention (I always pay attention, as you might imagine), and one of the reasons I didn't give DS1 formula in the early I know nothing about bf and it hurts days was because I didn't have a clue how to make it up and I didn't want to "sodding well fail at bottlefeeding as well as breastfeeding" (said in a middle of the night rant to DH when he said "just give him a bottle then!" when I couldn't get DS1 latched on).

Well, yes, JV - and in no small part because of demos just like that. It is expected that women will ffeed their babies in this country. Because they do. Or is it the other way round?

Unsafe - I dont see how...no more than any other group demo on baby care could be.

Normalising - I think you would have to weigh up a demo on making up a bottle against the amount of info given about bfing, which is MASSES (it is certainly presented as the 'normal' option, which I dont have a problem with).

and when would the one to one demonstration take place? Is someone is going to FF then they need to know how to do it properly before the baby is born. Yet mothers who have already chosen to FF get frowned on if they ask for advice at antenatal classes. One thing I do still remember from DS1's antenatal classes is one mother asking about mix feeding, for similar reasons to why I always intended to mix-feed DS3 (who is obviously now completely FF LOL). She left feeling like she shouldn't have bothered asking - was basically told just express EBM or read the instructions on the back of the tin (fair enough they tell you how to make up the bottles - but give no real indication of how much/how often nor do they tell you about the "finer" details of mixed feeding...

Look, making up a bottle is actually not that easy. The up to date safety guidance about temperature and letting the milk cool to whatever-degrees and not making up in advance and what happens if your baby doesn't drink all of it blah blah blah blah is something people have real problems with....and it is not on the tin of every brand. I have forgotten which brands have it and which don't.

Demo-ing in a group to mothers who (mostly) plan to breastfeed normalises formula feeding and undermines breastfeeding. In addition it is not an effective way of showing the safest means of doing it. None of this is good for the health of babies. I'd feel differently if the group was mostly parents who'd planned on formula feeding, but I would still think it would be mad to think the group demo would be enough.

I am certain people like Jeremy and others on here think this argument is a front for being 'against' formula feeding parents in some way and for doing them down. It isn't. Demo-ing in a group would somehow be supporting formula feeding parents, they think. That might be so, but a better and safer way of supporting them would be to show them what they need one to one.

Tiktok - at least we agree on one thing (btw x posts with you on my last post) FF'ing isn't a straight forward "read the tin and get on with it". Even "on demand" FFing takes some getting used to, and IMO the "recommended" feed sizes on the side of the tin are a waste of space.

ok well I stand corrected tbh I was making up bottles as a 13 year old babysitter but maybe I was just a prodigy
we demonstrate bathing in antenatal classes because clients ask us to, generally. though I agree it is of little use.
I don't demo bottle prep for the reasons tiltok stated earlier, I work for the NCT. but I probably wouldn't grop demo it anyway, it is useless as a teaching tool. if asked I do give out a UNICEF leaflet about making up a bottle. I have never been asked as it happens, though I mention I have them

Hunker,

Don't statistics show that the majority of babies admitted to hospital for gastro infections are formula fed, no ?

I'd hazard a guess that some of the problems are about lack of care/attention to hygiene whilst making up bottles or in the storage of them.

Some people will want to use or some will have to use formula milk no matter what the current information regarding the benefits of breastfeeding is.

I'd like to think that any demonstration is better than none. If I were to go to an educational lecture, with or without a practical demonstration, I'm not expected to recall the whole lecture word for word, particularly any detailed/technical aspects. I receive a set of notes to re-inforce the information and to help me apply it at a later date.

All I'm asking for is that both types of mum are given information they have expressed a need for in an appropriate manner together with non-judgemental support in following through with their subsequant choice.

Trying to follow tiny print instructions on the side of a formula package in a sleep deprived state is full of potential for an error. What about people whose reading skills are poor to start with ?

Unsafe to show a demonstration to a group but not unsafe to be unable to show parents a demonstration at all ?

All that happens is that the information for non-readers is passed on by word of mouth from other formula users who may not even be using the same type of formula and the guidelines for making up and storing formula milk changed between ds1 and the arrival of ds2. How did the update find its way into the 'word of mouth'/'demonstration by a friend who had previously bottle fed her baby' information chain ?

This has nothing to do with the Boots information scenario per se, but has arisen from the fact that those initially condemning the provision of a snippit of information relating to formula milk seemed to be breastfeeding mums wanting to deny formula feeding mums information surrounding their choice.

That just seems a bit off to me.

I totally understand your personal choice and why you are so keen on that choice but I'd prefer that all mums have access to information relating to their own personal choice and that any available information is not stifled by people who followed a different path and would prefer that all others follow in their footsteps.

I do mean this in the nicest possible way because despite being happy with my choice of formula feeding I'd still have a go at anyone making life uncomfortable for a mum breastfeeding in public.