Is anybody else's Boots putting up irritating signs by the infant formula?

[CorrieDale]

It's along the lines of: We're terribly sorry we can't offer you discounts on infant formula but these horrid regulations have made discounting illegal.

Is it a national thing or just my local branch? I have tried sabotage tactics when I see them, but wonder if there is anything else I can do.

Queen, you are describing crap antenatal teaching. In the classes I do, we discuss mixed feeding, because it's important that people know (whether they remember is something else ) mixed feeding at the start of a baby's almost always turns into full ff very quickly, apart from the health impact, and we discuss why this is the case. The finer details are not appropriate for the class - it's boring for everyone, just as the finer details of expressing and going back to work are boring, as no individual situation is ever going to be replicated in the class. They just need to know to call me/the NCT bf line and get one to one 'finer details'.

The demo of bottle feeding one to one can take place in the hospital before discharge, and/or on the first day back at home. I think the risk of a baby coming to harm between birth and the demo is small, just as I think the odds on remembering every aspect of the group demo are small.

Unsafe, you ask Jeremy? Making bottles incorrectly is unsafe - you know that, don't you? I don't think group demo of a baby bath is a good idea, either, as you can do that unsafely (though common sense would guide you into water temp and so on, and making up bottle requires a lot more than common sense....people might put powder in before water, for instance, or not know the temp guidance. But if someone forgets to bring a spare nightie or towel in their labour bag, or the name of the drug they want/don't want, then that's not unsafe.

Sorry to butt in but as this is where the BF experts Tiktok/Hunker are, this thread seems to need your help...

I want more information for all parents on infant feeding, not less, given in an appropriate way.

This scenario of the illiterate, sleep deprived mother relying on a group demo of formula feeding weeks before is an example of what I am saying - she's exactly the sort of mother who needs one to one help and support and practice with someone there with her.

It's not a case of 'some information is better than none' - the wrong or the wrongly recalled information can be unsafe.

tiktok - nowhere in my post did I say what you think. I stated what I think. Clearly we think different things and I doubt either of us will change our minds, which is perfectly acceptable to me. I will leave it to others to read what is already written and draw their own conclusions.

hunker - I didn't mean to ignore your original question to me - somehow I didn't see it the first time around. Anyhow, while I'll accept your description of the typical antenatal class, I really don't see why information about bottlefeeding is likely to flee from my head any more quickly than any other information given to me in class. Perhaps a little handout that I could refer to later would help? (I'll leave it to others to debate the relative merits of group vs. private home tutoring session. I just don't have the energy or inclination for that one).

Before I had my first baby I was twice shown how to bath a baby and how to make up a bottle and given the information for correctly sterilising bottles and equipment.
Once was at antenatal classes and again with a small group before we were discharged from hospital. I bf for 3m and then ff (I panicked about returning to work). I remembered all that had been said at the bottlefeeding demo and was very glad that I had been shown. I think mothers should be shown all the options available to them.

I agree with fedup and snoozer and anyone else who says that non-judgemental information should be freely accessible about formula feeding. When I brought my little girl home from the hospital and prepared her first feed, I remember being paralysed with indecision about whether you were supposed to sterilise the knife for levelling off the scoops with. In the end, weeping from tiredness and hormones, I boiled a knife in a little pan of water for five minutes whilst jiggling my furious, starving baby around the kitchen.

I remember at my NCT class we had a full session with a breastfeeding counsellor as well as discussions in earlier sessions about breastfeeding, information sheets, numbers who to phone with any difficulties, all sorts. I already knew I would have to bottle feed, and the teacher was aware, but the extent of the support I received was 'oh if you want information about bottle feeding I've put a pile of leaflets by the door you can pick one up'.

I'm all for all the support for breastfeeding, but I didn't think it was quite necessary to be so dismissive of the alternative which many will end up doing for various reasons, like it or not. Particularly when someone like me knows from the start that breastfeeding isn't an option, so isn't going to be influenced into doing it unnecessarily by a teeny discussion about it.

"I am certain people like Jeremy and others on here think this argument is a front for being 'against' formula feeding parents in some way and for doing them down."

No, I think it is, in common with many threads on the rights and wrongs re formula, not very much to do with ffing at all, rather it's about the effect it has, one way or another, on bfing.

And I get riled by the assumption, time and time again, that if someone does not agree with certain posters it is due to a lack of understanding on the subject.

Some things (BFing is best for baby, for example) are irrefutable. But SO many issues that we all debate on here are not so clear cut and people have differing views which are right for them, it just seems sometimes that if you dont agree with certain posters, you are automatically wrong and need to be lectured until you accept that you are wrong. It's exasperating.

And Tiktok - "Making bottles incorrectly is unsafe - you know that, don't you?"
I dont need to answer that, do I?
You may believe that a group demo of making up a bottle is unsafe, I dont, obviously, otherwise why on earth would I be questioning why anyone would want to veto it?

Aw, emma, " I remember being paralysed with indecision about whether you were supposed to sterilise the knife for levelling off the scoops with." How would an antenatal demo have helped you there? You needed instant contact with someone in the know....you could have called the NCT bf line, and we would have known enough to say 'no, you don't need to sterilise it'.

flowery, I am really not sure what should have been done in your situation, but I accept the class did not meet your needs. The class offered by NCT is a 'breastfeeding class' though, and that's made clear at the start, and we can't pretend we are trained to give a ton of info about formula feeding...the specialist workers in this field are 'breastfeeding counsellors' not 'feeding counsellors', and I think if you came to the class or the course looking for a lot of info about the practicalities of ff, you were misled, and I am sorry.

FUWW, I'm not in disagreement with you, except that I don't think that group demonstrations are best.

All you say about better access to information for ffing parents I agree with.

Are you actually reading my posts?!

I thought this link was interesting Particularly the NB, which I will reproduce here, with my bold:

"NB. It is important to bear in mind that these standards do not restrict the provision of accurate and impartial information about artificial feeding. Parents who have chosen to artificially feed their baby should be given clear written instructions and shown how to make up a bottle safely before they leave hospital. Community staff should ensure that this information has been given and understood.

In order to ensure that staff receive up to date, accurate, unbiased information on artificial feeding, it is recommended that company representatives are not given free access to health care premises, but rather are asked to meet the designated staff member with responsibility for infant feeding on an appointment basis. The designated staff member can then distribute any new or relevant information to staff in an appropriate manner. This strategy has the advantage of saving staff time."

Seriously, why does anybody have a problem with appropriate information being imparted in a timely fashion to the correct target audience?

Jeremy - you know that making bottles up incorrectly is unsafe, is what I said.

If you know making bottles up incorrectly is unsafe, you will want people to learn how to do it safely.

There is work which shows group teaching of the techniques is not effective ie people remember it wrongly. Now, it doesn't matter a jot if they remember the number of vests to buy wrongly, or the name of the drug they want/don't want in labour. But it does matter if they misremember how to make up a bittle.

bittle=bottle.

Preview, preview, preview....

oooo that's an interesting one about the knife that you use to level off the scoops - I've FF 2 of my children and it's never crossed my mind - yet I was meticulous about sterilising the bottles and scrubbing my hands when making the bottles up .

Tiktok - how many people would know that you could call the NCT breastfeeding line to ask advice about anything to do with bottle feeding - it would certainly never have crossed my mind that it could be a port of call for problems such as Emma's!

I was shown in a group. I didn't forget. I made up the bottles safely. I can't be the only one who benefitted from a group demonstration.

Tiktok - I c&p'ed the part I quoted.

QoQ, there are also Careline numbers on the side of the tin which could answer that sort of question.

I know there are Hunker - but I'm just saying that I would never have considered calling a BFing helpline with regards to anything to do with bottle feeding....and most people I know in RL would never think of them as a port of call either.

And apart from the likes of you lot who call the FF Carelines to find out what dodgy advice they're giving out about BFing I don't know anyone who's rung them

Can I just clarify they were called Breastfeeding helplines when MNers called them to find out what bf info they were giving out? Shite stuff, if anyone's interested [major shock]

well you see I just wouldn't think of calling a "Careline" on anything TBH (unless I had a complain to make LOL).

I mean - I wouldn't call the number on the back of my organic fairtrade coffee to ask how to make a cup of coffee , in the same way I'd never have thought of ringing the number of the back of my SMA for advice on how to make up the bottles

Hunker,

Its clear then that I and many others should have been given the information but were not. Health care professionals, don't you just love them (not) ?

From the posts on this thread it would seem that the practice of not giving the information is widespread so I do find your link and quote exceptionally interesting.

Clearly formula feeding mothers are being routinely shortchanged as far as the Unicef family friendly policy is concerned but then the comparative size of the font for the N.B. shown in the page linked to says a lot really.

Tiktok, an antenatal demo would have given Emma the chance to think about making up bottles and ask the question "does the knife used for levelling off need to be sterilised ?" I don't think many formula feeding mums would have the nerve to ring a breastfeeding help line and ask about a bottlefeeding issue now would they, seriously ?

After the general tone of our NCT ante natal classes I didn't have the courage to dare to go to the NCT post natal mother and baby coffee mornings clutching my bottles. Don't get me wrong I was happy with my choice but I naturally assumed the tone would be the same as the classes. It was only much later after I had gone back to work that I met an acquaintance with a toddler who let me in on the fact that at least 50% of the mums at the meet-ups were using bottles and formula, herself included.

Jeremy, I know you copied and pasted. You have just read it wrongly. I said 'Making bottles incorrectly is unsafe - you know that, don't you?'...I was not assuming you knew that 'group demos' were unsafe.

I know it's off the wall to ring a bf line about knives and formula and was not actually assuming anyone would. This is something a manufacter's line could answer, or a HV.

People do ring the bf line to talk abour formula - all the time. They are almost always people who are bf, or who have bf, or who want to bf, and we are not trained to give info about the detailed practicalties of sterilising and so on (though we'd manage the knife question,I think) but we do talk about feelings and experiences and listen to people's often quite profund ambivalence and help them decide what's best for them.

Fedup, I hate the idea that anyone would feel unwelcome, but I don't know what we can do - it's a breastfeeding class you went to, not a feeding class, and it would not have been appropriate or possible to talk in the sort of detail you wanted about formula feeding. You can't complain that a breastfeeding class was 'about' breastfeeding....and if the tone sounded to you dismissive, then what would have helped? Bags of sympathy and concerned looks would have been awful!

Tiktok,

I've never been to a breastfeeding class in my life.

I thought and still believe that "NCT" is quick reference for the National Childbirth Trust.

We certainly didn't have a class in breastfeeding included as part of the course, just many references to "breast is best" just like the NHS health professionals do. I don't dispute that breast is best and I made no reference to my intent to formula feed during the entire course of classes, I felt it would be inappropriate to do so. It was another lady who asked the NCT tutor if she would do a demonstration in making up bottles.

fedup, sorry - all NCT courses have a breastfeeding class, or they are supposed to. If they don't (and not disputing your experience) it's because there is no bfc available. If it was a standard course, then a teacher without a breastfeeding counsellor is supposed to make other arrangements - get someone in from another organisation or in extreme situations, do the class herself.

I don't know why your course was so different. I just assumed you had a breastfeeding class as part of it, as this is the only sort of NCT antenatal course I am familiar with (there are weekend courses, and labour days, but a string of classes would always normally have a bf class). I am still not sure how your needs would have been best met...and if you are objecting to references to breastfeeding being better than formula (we should no longer be sloganising about 'breast is best' but I expect some people still do) then I am not sure where you could have gone, especially as you don't dispute the concept yourself!!

It sounds like no one got any decent help or info about feeding on the course, not just you.

I didn't go to my NCT classes looking for loads of info about the practicalities of bottlefeeding, and I realise that a session with a breastfeeding counsellor would obviously be about breastfeeding, so I'm not daft enough to feel misled by that.

But I'm thinking about the classes overall, not just the breastfeeding session. Bearing in mind most people will do some bottlefeeding at some point, it did seem a bit out of tune with reality and with the support that most people will need with feeding - it's not realistic to assume that ignoring bottlefeeding will remove the need for help with it. I think all that approach did for my group was add to the huge guilt that was/is felt by those mothers who gave up breastfeeding earlier than they would have liked. And absolutely none of them would have felt an NCT (or any other) bf helpline would be approachable for answers to ff questions.

Of course breastfeeding should be encouraged and supported, but I think NCT classes should not be just about the choices they encourage, but acknowledge the fact that the majority of mothers will start or end up bottlefeeding.

Corriedale- idont understand what your objection is in the OP?why would you want to "sabeotage" another mums right to purchase formula at discount. what relevance does have to you, and why do you consider it is appropriate for you to protest.what exactly riles you?

if you dont use formula -ok
some mums do, and may not appreciate your "sabeotage"