So is it just me who has viscerally negative reactions to talk about breastfeeding 4 or 5 year olds

[TwigorTreat]

Now look I know its different strokes for different folks and I am not judging anyone as I know logically that its fine and anyone who does is doing what they deem their very best for their own children.

But I am talking about a experiencing a sense of distaste that I cannot help. I do have a negative and almost physical reaction to the thought of breastfeeding my 3 year old let alone an older child. And I have discussed this before when it came to extending breastfeeding for my own child beyond 6 months and with the discussion was capable of making it past that psychological barrier to 11 months.

Perhaps the thought of having a reasonable discussion over this particular reaction is just a step too far for us on Mumsnet. But I thought I'd give it a go anyway .. what, with it being Saturday and all that.

Anyone who experiences the same sense of negativity will no doubt need to gulp down hard before adding to this discussion. Just as anyone who is on the 'other side of the fence' will need to take copious amounts of oxygen into their system to calm down before posting .. I hope both sides do though... it could be interesting and educational

hmm number of points

Firstly I think this has been in general a great thread ... an interesting discussion.

I am interested in all those who feel that this is sacrosant and shouldn't be discussed ... I disagree, I think all prejudices should be discussed to the greatest possible extent in a non-emotional way. How else are prejudices eroded? I don't think it should be out-of-bounds to discuss this here .. I think it is a relevant discussion.

I am sad and apologetic that some people feel insulted. It is interesting that this is also a physical reaction over my daring to express what they say is a standard response they encounter when breastfeeding older children in public. And indeed I have less discomfort over a night-feed for a child than a public one.

And I disagree that there is a fragility in breastfeeding when one gets beyond the early phase .. I can appreciate in the first few weeks and months there is a necessity for huge support. But I think in later stages there is a somewhat militancy about it which indeed can give the impression to those who are 'unable' (psychologically) to get to that stage that they are somehow not as great at this earth-mother lark ... note I said impression ... I think the recipients infer this rather than those who give the impression mean to.

The sad thing is that those who do breastfeed into childhood are those I would have counted as my online friends, I am uncomfortable to have insulted some of them, but am also releived that some felt it worthy of discussing.

oh long and chundering on post for this early in the morning ...

need to explain use of the word 'militancy' ... I mean that one becomes dogmatic in opinions in the face of negative reactions from others. I think this is natural and honest and somewhat admirable to get to the 'fuck you' stage.

However, I also think that when we get a group of eloquent, intelligent, amusing people who share the same experiences it can feel a little daunting to those outside that grouping, to those who have different mothering experiences. That sticking up for each other and strong expressions of approval can make one feel unapproved for taking a different path.

Twig - I think you are right about the fact that prejudices need to be discussed to be eroded. And I also agree that on the whole that this has been a great thread. I also agree that many people do feel uncomfortable about seeing breastfeeding a toddler. But I think that goes for breastfeeding on the whole. But I also think that it is really sad that our culture is like this.

I think that you were very brave to start this thread and on the whole - bar a few comments about it being 'creepy' and the like - I think it has been an intelligent discussion.

I don't know ANYONE in real life who has breast fed beyond 6 months. And that is only a few people. Most people I know did not BF at all or stopped in the first month or so.

ANyway - I am going off on a tangent of waffle

I never thought I would breast feed as long. It has just kind of happened. And I am glad that it has.

Yes, but... umm... the same goes for a group of people sticking up for each other with strong expressions of how breastfeeding a toddler is distasteful and unpleasant at a visceral level, verging towards creepy.

Isn't that likely to make those who breastfeed toddlers feel "unapproved for taking a different path"? And isn't it, more importantly, likely to "feel a little daunting" to those who want to continue breastfeeding their toddlers?

I suppose I don't see why this is "a great thread" (although I am very encouraged to see that, by and large, it didn't "kick off" in traditional MN style) when from your latest post you seem to feel that making people feel unapproved or daunted is a bad thing.

Demonaid - I think, IMO, it is 'great' because it hasn't kicked off and is being discussed intelligently (at least overall...).

I think the overall point, however, is that what ever your view of breastfeeder a toddler, it is a decision that only you and your child can make together and it really is no one else's business.

Just like when my sister decided not to breastfeed my niece AT ALL, I gave her the information which she asked for and then left her to it.

~And indeed I have less discomfort over a night-feed for a child than a public one.~

Mmmm, how very big of you. So breastfeeding my 14 month in the privacy of my own home won't upset you...FFS...grow up.

Breastfeeding is natural, normal and non sexual...if you don't like it...don't look.

As an emotional mature woman, this is what I do when I see people and/or behaviour in public which I dislike or find disgusting. I look away and concentrate on other things...easy...problem solved.

what popsycal said

I do feed my 14 month old in public, on the bus and everywhere and to date have had no negative comments.

Interestingly, whenever I feed in a parent friendly area, I end up with a small crowd of younger children interested in what is happening. It is a shame that many under 5's don't know about breastfeeding and have never seen it (regardless if they were fed as a baby)

I think all women who want to NIP should do, the more it is seen in real life the more 'normal' breastfeeding will become.

I do think a lot of the misunderstanding of breastfeeding comes from those people who didn't/couldn't breastfeed. I bought and used a 'boob tent' as I was so worried about feeding in public...but do it 10 times a day for a few months and I felt more natural about breastfeeding.

Just testing the water with this thought - please don't shout at me!

I wonder if breastfeeding for the first year and breastfeeding beyond a year are actually completely different activities, with different benefits for dcs and mothers?

I believe - along, I think, with most informed people-that bf is best nutritionally for the first 6 months.

I alos believe - along with a significantly smaller group of people - that it is nutritionally advantageous to bf to 12 months.

But although I am a committed extended breast feeder, I really don't think that it is nutritionally essential or even advantageous after that. A human child is usually eating a wide range of other food and I suspect that the nutrition gained for bf beyond 12 months is minimal. There are lots of other advantages (for soe people) - intimacy, comfort, bonding...but not nutrition.

So, I think it's not fair to attack people who question ebf on the grounds that they are anti breastfeeding and are likely to discourage the bf of infants. I think it's completely possible to question the bf of toddlers while being wholly supportive of the bf of infants.

Seeker - I see what you are saying but there are nutriotional benefits beyond 12 months. The antibody thing does not just switch itself off when you one year old blows out their candles.

at the candles thing and the antibodies. That is obviosuly true, but by the time the baby is 1 they are starting to generate their own active immunity, and are not so reliant on the passive immunity that they get from their mother. So there is a gradual tapering off of what is 'needed'

But as you say, there is no magic switch in those candles

Sorry - I agree about the candles 9dificult to blow them out while bf though!) Please add "around" in front of all the ages in my post!

I still think my idea is quite interesting, though!

QUOTE~I really don't think that it is nutritionally essential or even advantageous after that.~

All the studies show that there are many health and nutrient benefits for both the mother and child, which is why the World Health Organisation (WHO) recommend a minimum of two years of breastfeeding and to continue as mutually agreeable.

Here is a link for anyone who would like to read about the facts of extended breastfeeding (backed up with scientifical research)...
Extending Breastfeeding Benefits

QUOTE START
"Antibodies are abundant in human milk throughout lactation" (Nutrition During Lactation 1991; p. 134). In fact, some of the immune factors in breastmilk increase in concentration during the second year and also during the weaning process. (Goldman 1983, Goldman & Goldblum 1983, Institute of Medicine 1991).
END QUOTE

WHO recommends at least to 2 years.

i don't really understand how that seems to be totally ignored by so many people who would otherwise use 'scientific' evidence in their arguments.

and there is an at least in that sentence.

oh sorry witches, you're already there!

The WHO guidelines cannot be repeated enough...so many mums have never heard of them

Those facts are not that convincing when you look at them though.

Yes, breastmilk provides valuable nutrition, antibodies etc. It would do so all your life, presumably.

Breastmilk increases your child's intelligence. So in 3rd world countries where extended breastfeeding is more usual, people are cleverer? People were cleverer in the old days when extended breastfeeding was more common?
Or is it that the chattering classes are more likely to extended breastfeed?

If you wish to ignore and belittle the scientific information, that is your choice but it does not change the results.

QUOTE
So in 3rd world countries where extended breastfeeding is more usual, people are cleverer
END QUOTE
Why not, just because these people live in the 3rd world does not make them stupid. There is no reason why the average IQ could not be high in a 3rd world country.

oh no I totally accept the WHO guidelines .. I do... I do

which makes my reaction even less easy for me to comprehend

if it was as simple as head saying "farkin' stop that you total numpty" then I would have done it when bf'ing DD .. and not got to 11 months and thought I had to stop

QUOTE~thought I had to stop ~
Out of genuine interest...why did you think you had to stop at 11 months ?

Twig, I didn't say it was sacrosanct or shouldn't be discussed, but some awareness of the very sensitive mature of the subject you are discussing here would help. You are telling people that you find their feeding choices sickeningly distasteful, and yet you somehow expect them to come and make polite chit chat about it for your benefit. Despite the fact that the TITLE says "So is it just me?" therefore asking for others who feel the same way to also come along and say how creepy it is. Which they have.

I think one way to have started a conversation on this topic, if you genuinely wanted to change your views, would perhaps to have said "I would like to feel more comfortable about extended breastfeeding, could you please come and share your experiences with me?" or similar. WAS that what you wanted to happen? I am not sure how else you think disussing it could help you. And, as many people have said, we find the wording, and the terms used, upsetting and damaging to women's often fragile confidence with breastfeeding. I wasn't talking about it just being damaging to people breastfeeding older children btw - I think these kind of attitudes are damaging to ALL breastfeeding, as long as it is seen as something odd, distasteful, indulgent and animalistic. I don't think the age of the child matters much tbh. If a child that is of an age to benefit from breastfeeding (and all children up to the usual age of self-weaning WILL benefit from breastmilk), wants to breastfeed, and their mother wants to breastfeed them, then it's a good thing to happen. That's about it. If you feel uncomfortable about it and want to simply share those opinions, I would keep your thoughts to yourself, I really would. It isn't acceptable to air this kind of sweeping bigotry in a public place any more than the examples HC gave ahout feeling uncomfortable about disabled people.

BTW you are quite quite wrong about this:

"I disagree that there is a fragility in breastfeeding when one gets beyond the early phase"

support from one's midwives, peers, relatives and health professionals is often there for the first 6 months or so. Past a year, there is almost without exception NOTHING. No support, no encouragement, no understanding, just a vegue distaste (at best) and the constant questions about "so when are you stopping?"

Seeker all children being breastfed benefit nutritionally from it, no matter what age. This page is very informative, specifically the part about nutrition:

"In the second year (12-23 months), 448 mL of breastmilk provides:
29% of energy requirements
43% of protein requirements
36% of calcium requirements
75% of vitamin A requirements
76% of folate requirements
94% of vitamin B12 requirements
60% of vitamin C requirements
-- Dewey 2001"

Message withdrawn

I don't wish to "ignore and belittle" the scientific information - and as I have said before I am a committed ebf. But as far as I can see, there is no scientific evidence that there is any physical benefit to feeding beyond 2, and, in fact, most of the physical benfits have already been conferred by 12 months.