Today I started to doubt my support for extended BFing

[artichokes]

Before I get flamed let me say that DD is nearly 15 months and still breastfed. I am the only one I know doing this so I looked up a LLL extended BF support group.

DD and I went along and . I was really shocked by the other mothers there and the effect their approach to BF had on their kids.

They were all getting their breasts out the moment their toddlers made a whimper. Not trying to distract them or find out what was wrong, no real attempts at communication, just an immediate offer of the breast and an arrogant assumption that this made then superior mothers. As a result of this none of the toddlers were at all sociable. DD was the only one who seemed interested in the external environment. The BF toddlers seemed to have a very insular relationship with their mothers and their breasts.

Now if DD gets upset I try and understand the problem. When she was newborn I at this age I think it is unhealthy to teach her that oral comfort is always the answer and I think it misses a chance to communicate with her and find out what she is reacting to. It would be very easy for me to offer the breast at every murmur, I would spend a lot more time mumsnetting for a start. But that would be about me not her.

TBH this meeting has made me question how healthy extended BFing is. Does anyone else understand what is concerning me?

That isn't extended BF per se though is it? It's just a particular bunch of women using BF in a way you don't agree with. The way you have written it, I agree with you too, but surely it is just a snapshot in time and may not be all they ever do?

If BF was just used as the panacea to all ills without talking about what the problems were I could see your concern, but why would the women have to distract their toddlers from BF if the toddlers wanted to BF? That suggests that BF is inappropriate for their age. If they were having regular sips of juice/water from a cup would you have expected their mothers to distract them?

I think maybe you have just stumbled across a group whose parenting style is different to yours.

just a couple of responses to your post about parts where I think you are mistaken

Comforting your child orally is not unhealthy when it is breastfeeding you are talking about. Comforting your child with sweets all the time = not so good. Breastfeeding frequently to reassure and connect with your child = fine.

Extended breastfeeding is not about the mother. You can't make a child breastfeed.

There is also nothing wrong with a toddler in a situation like this wishing to stay close with their mother. You are really judging negatively there by saying "insular". You could compliment them and say "closely bonded" if you were seeing it from a positive perspective.

My nearly-3-year-old DS is still feeding frequently, and I've given up trying to 'distract' him as it was spectacularly unsuccessful. If he wants a feed (which he does 4-6 times a day, plus several at night), he wants a feed - a jigsaw isn't going to cut the mustard. He is really very sociable and secure, and will wander away from me in busy playgroups quite happily.

I really think that your interpretation is skewed - possibly by your belief that these women shared an 'arrogant assumption that [on-demand feeding] made them superior mothers'. Speaking for myself, I don't believe anything of the kind. On-demand feeding is easy for me, easy for DS and good for both of us. I try not to make any judgements about what other people choose to do.

Maybe the women were as you describe. These women. These particular women. Just these women.

See where I'm going with this?

Or maybe they were as others have suggested to you on the thread.

We can't know.

But to tar every extended bfer with the same brush? Please don't. You wouldn't know DS2 still bfed if we were out and about. If we're at home and I'm on the sofa, or in our bedroom, he feeds. Otherwise, he doesn't. He has refused to feed when we're out in the past (eg if he's fallen and is upset), so he set these rules. He's quite stubborn. I could no more make him feed than not.

I know what you mean, artichokes. I was an extended BFer (up to nearly 2 - only stopped then for allergy reasons) and I knew another mum with a child the same age who was also BFing. Only her child was ALWAYS on the breast - I never saw her talk, play, or engage with others. Maybe I am judging negatively, but I did and do worry about this child. I think doing anything to the exclusion of other appropriate activities should be checked. Of course this doesn't condemn extended BF per se, but BF isn't immune from dysfunctional influence just because it's a good thing.

artichoke - you sounds quite angry & judgemental & your lauguage is quite inflamatory eg

getting their breasts out
no real attemps at communication
an arrogant assumption that this made then superior mothers
none of the toddlers were at all sociable

do you know why this group of woman have made you so angry? Are you saying you want to stop BF because you dont want to be like them? Dont you realsie that these are pretty sweeping assumptions and thats its not logical to say that all Bf toddlers are "not at all socialble"?

Perhaps they thought that they had to get their norks out as it was a breastfeeding group. What made you go? Did you feel as though you needed support or did you just think you were going to meet like minded people? The way you describe them makes them sound like very odd ladies.

I agree with Franny. You are judging these women but what you think is right and "wrong". I bf my 9 month old and when he crawls or walks into something and hurts himself he wants to feed as it comforts him. That's not to say he never wants comfort in other ways but if it's me and him and other unknown people then that's what he wants. If daddy or other well know people are around he's happy with a cuddle and a kiss.

I think your attitude is wrong to be quite honest.

Personally I think that a newborn fairs far better from a feed and a snuggle than trying to find out what they're reacting to and mostly they will want a feed if they're crying. Oral comfort is just that, comfort. It's needed and should be given.

Hello, I don't breast feed my DS and therefore I guess I have no valid view on extended BF, I just wanted to say to Artichokes that I can understand your worries on what you saw at the meeting.

My DS may not BF but in the early days he did have a dummie for comfort. Once he was old enough to start interacting with us and or his toys, if I knew he was fed, clean etc I would entertain him if poss rather than just pop the dummie in his mouth, after a few days of this, he never needed it again. If he wants a cuddle he comes over and he has a cuddle, we have a very strong bond.

With this in mind, I to would have been concerned but surely this a parenting matter not a breast feeding issue?

Sorry if I upset everyone cos I don't BF

It's really normal, actually, for a child under 2 to be cautious and want to stay with their mother in a group situation, especially with this type of group situation where the child will not know all or even most of the other adults and children present

that's not to say it is more desirable or better for children to be this way, or that there is anything wrong with children who DON'T want to stay close to their mother - but it is one type of normal behaviour, and there isn't actually anything wrong with it

very early independence is mistakenly prized in our society. It isn't a superior outcome, or even the only normal outcome, it's just one of a set of ways that children can respond

snickers I understand what you are saying but there is a difference between comforting a child with an object (dummy) and a person comforting the child with cuddles and breastfeeding

it's good to encourage children to seek comfort from other people

it isn't wholly advantageous as it is generally believed to be in our culture to be self sufficient and learn early on to self soothe

Franny - I disagree that is always healthy to use the breast as the first choice when reassuring a child. If your child needs reassurance about a new situation then I think it is most healthy to take them on your lap, give them a cuddle and explain what is happening while gently encouraging to see the oppurtunities for fun that the situation provides. I am not saying you should deny them the breast if they really want it (these kids never even got to the stage of asking).

I would also question your assertion that "You can't make a child breastfeed". If the breast is offered all the time then you are not teaching your child other coping strategies, they are thus more likely to need the breast for comfort.

I totally agree that there is nothing wrong with a toddler wishing to stay close with their mother. A close and communicative relationship between mother and child is a beautiful and important thing. I was simply shocked at the lack of communication and variety in the relationships I saw today.

Policywonk - I am glad you try not to make any judgements about what other people choose to do. You are differnet to the extended breastfeeders I met today who were very judgemental about other mothering choices. That was part of what shocked and dismayed me.

I don't want you all to think I am against extended BF. I will almost certainly continue feeding DD. I think NineUTs is right, I met a group who I clashed with. I should prbably just leave it at that.

Gosh there were a lot of cross posts and I have to run to bed. Let me very quickly say that Hester may have expresed my concerns in a less inflammatory way than I managed. I do think there is a risk that a few people can get so militant about BF that they fail to question its use in any context. Hunker is no doubt right that my problem is at an indiviudal level. I did not mean to make sweeping generalisations. I am an extended BFer I hardly want to tar as all with the same brush.

I should alsoadd to Jodie that I totally agree that newborns should be offered the breast for comfort but I think that changes as other lines of communication open up.

Could you clarify exactly what you mean about getting out the breast at the slightest whimper? I mean, was it a case of: small child scampers about, has toy snatched off her, looks to mummy in outrage and mummy whips out her tit? Or, small child is upset, goes to mummy, clambers up on lap and sticks hand down the front of mummy's shirt, at which point mummy flops out the necessary? If the former, then I can see your point (although it still wouldn't particularly bother me). If the latter, then you're describing me.

Artichokes I read what you are saying about not being against extended BF, but many of the phrases and opinions in your posts show that you feel uncomfortable about the idea of bf being used for comfort and about this level of intimacy and closeness for an older child

you seem to see bf as being for nutrition only, for older children? It's a common thing.

to me to offer a young (and these children are still YOUNG IMO) breastfed child a breastfeed when they are unsure, or anxious, or upset is as natural and desirable as giving them a cuddle. I wouldn't even think twice about it and probably wouldn't even notice that I was doing it. I don't expect you notice how many cuddles you give your child a day, or in what situations? To me and to many other women, to limit breastfeeding to certain situations or to only when the child asks specifically for it, seems as odd and stilted as to only give your child a cuddle or kiss when they specifically ask for it. Breastfeeds, cuddles, love and affection should ideally all be given freely and without thinking, IMO and IME

Hi franny, I agree its very different, I did BF for 6 weeks and its was a wonderful feeling, but I'm sure we've all seen young children basically being passified with an oral comforter of some kind because mum was in the middle of a conversation or something, I was trying to make the point that its more to do with how individuals interact with DCs than the "equipment" used?

If DS is upset he is always comforted by a good cuddle.

Artichoke, you shouldn't change your plans because you didn't like what your saw at meeting. Good luck, you are all amazing, I just couldn't make it work for me. (DS doesn't seem to mind tho )

Again I agree with Franny. Even now at 9 months my ds2 will not feed if he doesn't want to, but if he is tired, hurts himself then that's what he wants. I usually offer the breast right away as I know that's what he wants but I have actually tried with cuddles and kisses and it does not placate him at all, he just tries to pull my top down and squirm down to my breasts.

I know what he wants and needs by now and I know when he needs a feed or when a cuddle will suffice.

There is nothing wrong with extended bf and offering a bf in older babies just the same as newborns imo.

Snicker there is no way that a dummy can be comapared with a breastfeed imo, it's not a substitute.

As your child wasn't bf then I would think that is why they would be comforted by a cuddle, a bf child would (probably) be more comforted by a bf rather than a cuddle.

I'm not being biased either as I bottle fed dd (although I wish I hadn't and it's a long story I've posted before wish I feel guilty about).

"I was trying to make the point that its more to do with how individuals interact with DCs than the "equipment" used? "

yes I do get what you are saying snickers, but I am not sure I agree

this is very complicated though and hard to discuss without sounding disapproving of other people's methods

however I think what we should remember is that first and foremost, comfort from breastfeeding is comfort from a PERSON, not an object, and that is what the child associates the good feelings with - the person

this is a good and desirable and healthy way to learn about comfort, trust, relationships, security, love etc

hi franny and jodie, sorry thought I'd kind of agreed re dummie/breast comparison, and I take your point that my DS wouldn't look to BF for comfort.

I was trying to encourage Artichoke to carry on on her own path and not change it because she saw what she felt was inapproprate comforting. I can agree that when a child is hurt, upset or unwell that it needs closeness and comfort from its mother.

Everything Franny said is spot on.

My bf dd2 is 9 months and if she falls over/crawls into something she never takes comfort in a bf - her choice not mine - i tend to offer her it in an attempt to calm her but she almost always refuses - she prefers a cuddle. She still feeds 4 times a day and refuses feeds for any reason outwith her normal feed times.

I see where you are coming from snickers - i bottle fed dd1 and both my dd's have had dummies (dd2 still has) it is only used for sleep times as she comes off the breast and looks for her dummy when she has finished her feed. far too often dummies/breasts are used as a distraction rather than asking the child what is wrong and addressing it (older children I mean).

sorry dd2 is 8 and a half months not 9 months!