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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Gina Ford vs. Babywise

98 replies

catcatdelight · 30/08/2004 13:14

I've had my 7.5 week old DS on GF since birth, and am going to give BAbywise a go. Reason being, he is a hungry boy (not out of control hungry, just hungry), and it looks to me like he gets one extra feeding on Babywise and they are spaced closer together, which is better. He gets cranky in the afternoons, and cannot seem to make it to the GF 5pm split feed nicely. He 's not sleeping thru nite yet on GF. We put him down at b/t 11p and 12, after the one hour feed/wake GF recommends. He then wakes up at 3:40am, and I feed him a bottle. But then he grizzles and doesn't sleep so well b/t 4a and 7a. He's usually up at 6:30a needing a feed. BTW, my normal feed is 20 minutes on the left breast and 20 minutes on the right breast and then from 80ml-125 ml formula top up. He gets topped up at every feed,a s he's so hungry. (though, he has gained 12 oz. per week, so I am a little concerned about overfeeding).

My question is, is there anyone out there who has a similar situation to me, and has an opinion on BAbywise vs. Gina Ford, part. for hungry boys? I'd like to know which one will get him to sleeping thru the night faster. Also, his best sleep of the day on GF is b/t 7p and 11p. He could sleep all night from that feed, and I'd rather he have that great sleep after the 11pm obviously. anyone?

OP posts:
AussieSim · 30/08/2004 13:38

I am sure more experienced people will jump in here soon, but my instinct is to tell you to relax relax relax. IMO you shouldn't have any expectations of a baby sleeping through at 7.5weeks. Waking once a night at that time is doing really well. Re the BF and then topping up I would say that you are defeating the purpose of BFing and missing out on some benefits to you by topping him up every feed. My understanding is that it is the baby who programs the boobs to produce the amount of milk the baby requires but if you are topping up than you are not really giving that system a chance. I did GF BTW but I also tweeked it according to my instincts. There is only one expert on your little boy and it is you. Changing gurus may not be the answer is what I am trying to say. I am just worried that you might be missing out on some of the good stuff of being a mum by being so worried about routines. I hope you can take this in the spirit of support in which it is intended. I too was once a tense new mum who relied on GF to know what was what. Just know it gets easier and that they stay so little for such a short period of time that you should try to live in the moment and enjoy it rather than over analyse it and miss it. Good Luck.

geekgrrl · 30/08/2004 13:46

babywise? the author demonstrated on TV how to hit a baby: pull the nappy to one side to expose as much as possible of thigh/buttock and then give a hard slap... nice

Piffleoffagus · 30/08/2004 13:52

hmm heard lots of bad things about babywise
as in this articel

Babywise advice linked to dehydration, failure to thrive
by Matthew Aney, M.D.

Expectant parents often fear the changes a new baby will bring, especially sleepless nights. What new parent wouldn't want a how-to book that promises their baby will be sleeping through the night by three to eight weeks?

One such book, On Becoming Babywise, has raised concern among pediatricians because it outlines an infant feeding program that has been associated with failure to thrive (FTT), poor weight gain, dehydration, breast milk supply failure, and involuntary early weaning. A Forsyth Medical Hospital Review Committee, in Winston-Salem N.C., has listed 11 areas in which the program is inadequately supported by conventional medical practice.The Child Abuse Prevention Council of Orange County, Calif., stated its concern after physicians called them with reports of dehydration, slow growth and development, and FTT associated with the program. And on Feb. 8, AAP District IV passed a resolution asking the Academy to investigate "Babywise," determine the extent of its effects on infant health and alert its members, other organizations and parents of its findings.

I have reviewed numerous accounts of low weight gain and FTT associated with "Babywise" and discussed them with several pediatricians and lactation consultants involved.

The book's feeding schedule, called Parent Directed Feeding (PDF), consists of feeding newborns at intervals of three to three and one-half hours (described as two and one-half to three hours from the end of the last 30-minute feeding) beginning at birth. Nighttime feedings are eliminated at eight weeks.

This advice is in direct opposition to the latest AAP recommendations on newborn feeding (AAP Policy Statement, "Breastfeeding and the Use of Human Milk," Pediatrics, Dec. 1997): "Newborns should be nursed whenever they show signs of hunger, such as increased alertness or activity, mouthing, or rooting. Crying is a late indicator of hunger. Newborns should be nursed approximately eight to 12 times every 24 hours until satiety."

Although demand feeding is endorsed by the Academy, WHO, and La Leche League among others, "Babywise" claims that demand feeding may be harmful and outlines a feeding schedule in contrast to it. The book makes numerous medical statements without references or research, despite that many are the antitheses of well-known medical research findings. In 190 pages, only two pediatric journals are referenced with citations dated 1982 and 1986.

Many parents are unaware of problems because the book is marketed as medically supported. It is co-authored by pediatrician Robert Bucknam, M.D., who not only states in the book that the "Babywise" principles are "medically sound," but also writes, "'Babywise' has brought a needed reformation to pediatric counsel given to new parents." Obstetrician Sharon Nelson, M.D., also warns: "Not following the principles of "Babywise" is a potential health concern."

The book's other author is Gary Ezzo, a pastor with no medical background. Ezzo's company, Growing Families International (GFI), markets the book as "ideally written" for "obstetricians, pediatricians, or health-care providers to distribute to their patients." (GFI promotes the same program under the title "Preparation for Parenting," a virtual duplicate with added religious material).

Though "Babywise" does say, "With PDF, a mother feeds her baby when the baby is hungry," it also instructs parents to do otherwise. In a question-and-answer section, parents of a 2-week-old baby, who did not get a full feeding at the last scheduled time and wants to eat again, are instructed that babies learn quickly from the laws of natural consequences. "If your daughter doesn't eat at one feeding, then make her wait until the next one."

Unfortunately, the schedule in "Babywise" does not take into account differences among breastfeeding women and babies. According to one report, differences of up to 300 percent in the maximum milk storage capacity of women's breasts mean that, although women have the capability of producing the same amount of milk over a 24-hour period for their infants, some will have to breastfeed far more frequently than others to maintain that supply. Babies must feed when they need to, with intervals and duration determined according to a variety of factors in temperament, environment, and physiological make-up. Averages may fit into a bell-shaped curve, but some babies will require shorter intervals. (Daly S., Hartmann P. "Infant demand and milk supply, Part 2. The short-term control of milk synthesis in lactating women." Journal of Human Lactation; 11; (1):27-37).

Examples of the many other unsubstantiated medical claims in "Babywise" include:
"Lack of regularity [in feeding intervals] sends a negative signal to the baby's body, creating metabolic confusion that negatively affects his or her hunger, digestive, and sleep/wake cycles."
"Demand-fed babies don't sleep through the night."
"A mother who takes her baby to her breast 12, 15, or 20 times a day will not produce any more milk than the mom who takes her baby to breast six to seven times a day."
"Mothers following PDF have little or no problem with the let down reflex, compared to those who demand-feed."
"Colic, which basically is a spasm in the baby's intestinal tract that causes pain, is very rare in PDF babies but is intensified in demand-fed babies."
"In our opinion, much more developmental damage is done to a child by holding him or her constantly than by putting the baby down. In terms of biomechanics alone, carrying a baby in a sling can increase neck and back problems, or even create them."
"Some researchers suggest that putting a baby on his or her back for sleep, rather than on the baby's tummy, will reduce the chance of crib death. That research is not conclusive, and the method of gathering supportive data is questionable."

My review of the low weight gain and FTT accounts associated with "Babywise" revealed several disturbing trends. Parents were often adamant about continuing with the feeding schedule, even when advised otherwise by health care professionals. They were hesitant to tell their physicians about the schedule, making it difficult to pinpoint the cause for the weight gain problems. Many elected to supplement or wean to formula rather than continue breastfeeding at the expense of the schedule. The parents' commitment can be especially strong when they are using the program for religious reasons, even though numerous leaders within the same religious communities have publicly expressed concerns.

Pediatricians need to know about "Babywise" and recognize its potential dangers. History taking should include questions to determine if parents are using a feeding schedule, especially before advising formula supplement to breastfeeding mothers or when faced with a low-gaining or possible failure to thrive baby. Lactation consultants also should be instructed to probe this area.

Efforts should be made to inform parents of the AAP recommended policies for breastfeeding and the potentially harmful consequences of not following them.

Dr. Aney is an AAP candidate fellow based in Lancaster, Calif.

meandthomas · 30/08/2004 13:58

OMG!! really! Thats awfull!
I havent even heard of 'babywise'
I agree with what aussiesim said about topping up, and relax, enjoy you know your son better than anyone. at 7.5 weeks i really wouldnt stress about him not sleeping through the night, my ds wasnt till about 3months.
When he was hungry - each to there own but i tried and failed gf because i found it too rigid a routine for ds and me.
We settled into our own routine though very quickly and it suited us both much better
This doesnt actually answer your question - sorry!

Clayhead · 30/08/2004 14:08

Nighttime feedings eliminated at 8 weeks!? Have I read that right!

BLoody Hell, mine have both fed during the night for months! God job I never read this before I had dd...

ladymuck · 30/08/2004 14:08

I guess I approached it from the otherway round - I started on Babywise and then found that the baby had moved onto GF - probably at around 3 months. Certainly whilst there are still lots of feeds and sleeps I would suggest that the Babywise routine suited us better, but if I remember rightly it assumes that there will be lots of sleeps. As we got down to 3 or 2 naps a day GF worked better for me.

But you need to adjust your expectations. One of the main pressures on a new mum is to have baby sleeping through the night, and this seems to be more a pressure from Babywise followers than others I have found. I found that all my "Babywise" friends were expecting ds1 to be sleeping through by 12 weeks. I'm sure that some babies do, but with mine it was around 20 weeks, and they're both great sleepers, and still have fairly good routines. And when I persuaded the other Babywise devotees to be honest, their definition of "sleeping through" was to get 2x 5 hours stretches or something similar.

Slinky · 30/08/2004 14:14

IMO Neither

Slinky · 30/08/2004 14:18

Piffle

Just read your posting - I'd never heard of Babywise before this thread.

"Though "Babywise" does say, "With PDF, a mother feeds her baby when the baby is hungry," it also instructs parents to do otherwise. In a question-and-answer section, parents of a 2-week-old baby, who did not get a full feeding at the last scheduled time and wants to eat again, are instructed that babies learn quickly from the laws of natural consequences. "If your daughter doesn't eat at one feeding, then make her wait until the next one."

A 2-week old baby will learn the laws of natural consequences!!!! WHAT!!!!!

My 8yo still struggles to understand the consequences of her actions

SoupDragon · 30/08/2004 14:34

DH swore by Babywise . About the only things I took from it having read a chapter and found that I couldn't be bothered to read any more, was that DSs had a eat-play-sleep routine rather than a play-eat-sleep and I tried not to feed them less than 1.5 hours or longer than 4.5 hours after the last feed. This isn't quite what the book said but I made it fit my life and my babies. DSs are great sleepers and although they didn't sleep through the night by 8 weeks, they were sleeping 10 - 7 by 3 months and were pretty much happy to settle themselves. They have always been able to sleep anywhere, whether it's dark intheir own room or stetched out across a bench in a busy restaurant! They also piled on weight. They both settled into regular mealtimes that suited everyone.

Now, as I said, DH swore Babywise was the way to go. He read the whole book and thought it was gospel. I think it was a disaster for a newborn baby - DS1 dropped 2lbs from his birthweight within a week (luckily he was a hefty 10lber so had it to spare). This may have been due to shambolic first time breastfeeding, (I won't pretend I was feeding him well or easily!) but my gut feeling is that by following Babywise, we mis read DS1s needs badly. DH denies this and still denies it 5 years on I was an automaton in the weeks following DS1s birth and still shellshocked. With DS2, I followed my loose adaptation and he did not lose any significant weight at all IIRC.

I'd be wary of following any of these things rigidly. Read them all and take out the bits that suit you and your baby. It may not be what the authors intended, but if it works for you, so what? Have a look at yur DSs routine and see how you can tweak GFs routine to fit in with that rather than the other way round. All babies are different and have different needs. Not all of them are going to fit rigidly into a routine that someone else dictates. Could you eat and sleep only at the times specified by someone in a book?

Clayhead · 30/08/2004 14:35

Sorry, can't stop this one going through my head. What I can't understand about something so prescriptive is the difference between different mothers and different babies. My friend bf her baby, who only fed every 2 1/2 - 3 hours, on demand. I did the same but fed every 1 - 2 hours for the first few weeks. Both babies were happy and healthy, both slept through at wildy different times, they were just different.

IMHO feeding is not the be all and end all of whether or not a baby sleeps through. My ds hasn't slept through yet at 1 but not because he's hungry.

I had never heard of Babywise before this afternoon, is it very popular?

moomina · 30/08/2004 14:37

Definitely not trying to be inflammatory but I have to say I have only heard bad, and often downright scary, things about Babywise. I haven't looked fully into it so this is only IMO and what I have read specifically in a review in Kaz Cooke's 'Babywrangling' (she also wrote the Rough Guide to Pregnancy and Birth')... I very much enjoyed her books and found them immensely helpful, so I would tend to respect what she has to say. But my opinion only!

Babywise is based on religious principles (not necessarily a bad thing but...) and the author has declared himself an evangelical minister in the US, although this side of it is disguised for the books that are sold in the shops. There is apparently another edition for churches!

What Cooke says is that 'Babywise has been formally condemned by just about every baby doctor, breastfeeding counsellor and psychologist in the known universe. Starvation, developmental delay and psychological problems occured when parents followed the strict Babywise feeding schedules...'

Other recommendations are to leave a baby crying for long periods of time, to leave babies in playpens a lot, to 'swat' a baby over 6 months for 'foolishness' (!!!!) and to spank with a flexible instrument over 2 years... Children over 2 are made to clear up their potty-training accidents themselves as a punishment.

This is only what I have read. However, these ideas strike horror into my heart and I don't think I could follow this man's advice on how to get to the end of my road, let alone how to bring up my child or develop their sleep patterns.

kbaby · 30/08/2004 14:44

sorry i dont have any advice for you but my dd is 13 weeks old and fed every 3ish hrs during the day we have never gone through the night. Maybe your expecting a bit too much of such a young baby.

moomina · 30/08/2004 15:03

My first link here

cathncait · 30/08/2004 15:07

Hi catcat
With my first dd I too followed babywise - strongly recommended by friends at church (it is religiously based). I stressed about so very much about every little timing of feeds and stuff that I was very tense. And then...it didn't make dd sleep through. That didn't happen till 9 months when we did control crying.I even felt like I had done something wrong. I now have another dd (9 weeks) who has slept through once but is going at least 7 1/2 hours at night - this is all due to her own routine she has settled into.
My advice is to stay away from babywise. I don't remember there being the some of the really harsh things in it like the smacking 6 month olds though. i do agree that babies need routine and that it is really good for them - but they really, really are all different and will usually set their own patterns and fit in with your life if you let them. Please don't stress too much yet about sleeping through the night - give it time , your baby will get more and more settled over the next few weeks and months to come.
Enjoy your baby and try to relax.They are lovely - don't miss a thing

cathncait · 30/08/2004 15:17

me again - sorry, i feel really strongly about this stuff cos I feel like it wrecked a bit of my baby time with dd1 with me being so stressed out all the time. Just wanted to say - if there was one piece of advice I ever wished i listened to it would be to lose the whole babywise/structured routine type thing all together. (must admit don't know much about gf though).

Slinky · 30/08/2004 15:48

Been doing a bit of a Google on old Gary Ezzo and Babywise - haven't found much that is complimentary!!

suedonim · 30/08/2004 16:19

CLANG - that was my jaw hitting the deck, Piffle. I can't believe that stuff, it's awful. All that garbage about making them wait for feeds - if babies needed scheduled feeds surely humankind would have died out years ago, seeing as clocks weren't invented until relatively recently.

SueW · 30/08/2004 16:54

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request.

suedonim · 30/08/2004 17:48

Be my guest, SueW!

aloha · 30/08/2004 20:34

OMG, he's only tiny. Please don't impose this terrible regime on your little baby. It is absolute madness to expect a 7week old baby with the stomach the size of a walnut to sleep all night - and cruel and wrong to boot. Those authors are DREADFUL and EVIL people. Baby Nazis, and I'd never use that term lightly. Smacking babies! It defies belief. Don't do it. Just feed your baby when he is hungry and cuddle him as much as you can. I know what it's like to have a baby who doesn't sleep, but I'd never treat him like that because of it.

aloha · 30/08/2004 20:40

BTW if you put a bottle in a baby's mouth straight after a feed they will often/usually suck automatically. It does NOT mean they are still hungry or that they couldn't have got enough milk from you. Sucking is a reflex, which the bottle teat will stimulate. Don't think that because he will drink formula from a bottle that he is still hungry (as his weight gain shows). Topping up at every feed is a fast way to stop breastfeeding. It is considered very outdated.

IlanaK · 30/08/2004 20:48

Wow - that link to the article about it is quite shocking! I have to say that I followed GF with my first and am loosely following it with my second and I would not even put her in the same catagory as this whacko! She certainly does not advocate corporal punishment or withholding feeds! Totally insane! and as to sleeping through the night from 8 weeks, that is mostly impossible for breastfed babies! Even GF acknowledges this in here routines and points out that when she says a baby might be sleeping through the night, she is not talking about babies who are fully bf who she says will continue to wake in the night until they are quite and number of months old and weaned.

aloha · 30/08/2004 21:05

I know of breastfed babies that slept through very early and bottlefed babies who were nightmares for years. I really don't think that is the deciding factor. I actually think it is often simply the personality of the individual child, though stepping in at an appropriate age (ie six months plus, not seven weeks!) can help guide a child's sleep pattern. Looking back, I don't think I did anything wrong at all, but ds wasn't ready to sleep through until 8months. I very, very much hope my next baby will be different - fingers crossed. My ds never slept longer on formula at all.

zebra · 30/08/2004 21:07

I'm no fan of Gina Ford, but she's quite sane and reasonable regardless of recent outbursts compared to Ezzo. A veritable Saint of Compassion and Flexibility compared to Ezzo. He advocates babies wearing reins in bed to get used to them, as I recall. The importance of establishing parental discipline early, and all that. Not many parenting gurus have a dedicated website to discredit them .

Slinky · 30/08/2004 21:15

I just cannot understand why some parents out there choose to follow "Babywise" - it's distressing, shocking and abusive