Gina Ford vs. Babywise

[catcatdelight]

I've had my 7.5 week old DS on GF since birth, and am going to give BAbywise a go. Reason being, he is a hungry boy (not out of control hungry, just hungry), and it looks to me like he gets one extra feeding on Babywise and they are spaced closer together, which is better. He gets cranky in the afternoons, and cannot seem to make it to the GF 5pm split feed nicely. He 's not sleeping thru nite yet on GF. We put him down at b/t 11p and 12, after the one hour feed/wake GF recommends. He then wakes up at 3:40am, and I feed him a bottle. But then he grizzles and doesn't sleep so well b/t 4a and 7a. He's usually up at 6:30a needing a feed. BTW, my normal feed is 20 minutes on the left breast and 20 minutes on the right breast and then from 80ml-125 ml formula top up. He gets topped up at every feed,a s he's so hungry. (though, he has gained 12 oz. per week, so I am a little concerned about overfeeding).

My question is, is there anyone out there who has a similar situation to me, and has an opinion on BAbywise vs. Gina Ford, part. for hungry boys? I'd like to know which one will get him to sleeping thru the night faster. Also, his best sleep of the day on GF is b/t 7p and 11p. He could sleep all night from that feed, and I'd rather he have that great sleep after the 11pm obviously. anyone?

The Babywhisper stuff, was IMO, utterly imcomprehenible (re timing of stuff) and incredibly reductive at the same time (lots of emphasis on categorising very tiny babies), but not wicked. I think Gina Ford's routines are far too inflexible for many people's lifestyles and, indeed children, thought they work for others. The Ezzos are a different matter, and have about as much useful to say about childrearing as Victoria Climbie's aunt.

Hey, aloha, don't sit on the fence....tell us what you really think !!!!

I am always suspicious of anyone who says they know for sure what God thinks (and that's partly, but not soley, because I have no religion....I respect many people who do have faith). Good connection with the Climbie case, in fact, aloha....they justified themselves with religious claptrap too.

do you know I think i totally missed the boat here. I had no clue about anything when I had my children and have just trusted my own instinct. Wish i hadnt, neither of my children ever sleep!

I have to say that if I didn't know anything about them and was thinking of buying or borrowing this book, I would be INCREDIBLY grateful to be warned about their true colours. I certainly wouldn't be offended and I can't see why anyone would be.
Tiktok, there is another thread where the mother of a small, thin, bottle-averse 8month old is being advised by her doctor to swap her morning and evening breastfeed (which is going well btw) for formula to 'fatten him up'. I wondered if you could add to that. Sounds madness to me.

Tiktok - could you comment on catcatdelight topping up at every feed? To me it sounds counterproductive to milk production and a waste of catcatdelights time TBH.

Catcatdelight - I think they sleep through the night when they are ready to TBH and there is little you can do to help that, other than by giving the right sleep cues, such as bedtime routines, not being overchatty during night feeds etc. 7.5 weeks is extremely young for them to sleep through - i would say that you would be luck if your lo slept through at 12 weeks.

cat delight. I read the baby whisperer book when my ds was little, I also read a few other including babywise but skipped Gina Ford (so cant comment on her). I must admit that I am going to dig my version of the babywise book out againa and have a look at it because most of what has been said on here doesnt sound like the book I read (but then I am a skim reader!!)

I really found the baby whisperer one very helpful. I never stuck to it to the letter as I think that all babies are different. But when it came to ds sleeping habits I found the baby whisperer techniques very gentle and they worked a treat (although it took me a bit of time). I now have her toddler book as well. I think that her books helped me look at things from the prespective of my ds and were very helpful. I mixed some of her advice with my own instinct about ds.

Must say that ds didnt sleep through the night for a while. He was a hungry little devil and to the most part I demand fed him. In the baby whisperer book it instructs about listening to your baby and their cries and thinking about what their cries mean (sounds silly put like that she puts it much better!!) So if you think your baby is hungry feed him.

i have a hangover today so I am not putting this very well!! If you would like me to e-mail you all the details about all this I would be more than happy to! Might make more sense then. Let me know if you do and I will contact you via mumsnet. Good luck and dont worry too much about all this as it falls into place.

Joanneg, the way you used your reading is the way (in my view) books about baby care should be read - as a way of giving you some guidance and another perspective, which you supplement, and often over-ride when necessary, with your own experience, instincts, preferences, common sense, whatever. They are not blueprints to be followed religiously (I use the word deliberately!!).

The Babywise book does not accept you can 'mess about' in this individualised way, however. You follow what they say, and all will be just fine. Gina Ford has this prescriptive 'core' as well, as does (in a slightly less dogmatic way) the Baby Whisperer.

aloha, I think I have commented on that thread, haven't I? I agree, to take an 8-month-old baby (who won't take a bottle) off breastmilk because he is not gaining weight makes no sense. Keep the breastfeeding, and add calorie-dense solids to the baby's diet. Trying to replace something the baby will eat (breastmilk) with something he won't (formula bottle) as a means of increasing intake is an odd way to make a baby heavier.

But then this doctor prob thinks breastmilk magically turns to water at some arbitrary age.

MummytoSteven, topping up reduces milk supply. Over time, if catcat (where is she, BTW?) continues to top up at every feed she will find her milk supply decreases.

There are ways to combine formula feeding with breastfeeding and for breastfeeding to continue long term, but this isn't one of them...and yes, it is another job to do, as you imply.

Catcat, if you are still here, I do hope you take all this in a supportive spirit.....this is what happens on mumsnet, as the board is a sort of conversation which veers off in diffierent directions and discussions, just like in real life

Yep - a good one!

Practical, research-based, easy to read, and makes no promises - supports parents rather than dictating to them

Sorry to go back to the Babywise stuff again - I have just been looking at some stuff about it on the internet and I am horrified. Apparently they believe that pain is a "gift from God", and that an 18 month old should be hit routinely five times a day in order to "cleanse the child from guilt". We should ignore our babies when we cry for no better reason than that God ignored Jesus when he cried out on the cross, and that even a baby in a high chair must be hit "with a swatting motion" for poor table manners.

Who in their right mind could bring a child up this way? I am absolutely stunned.

Tiktok, there are two worried mothers of skinny 8month olds out there! The thread I was referring to was Valentine's post on Morning/evening breastfeed - which to give up first. Her paediatrician is suggesting giving up breastfeeding. Makes no sense at all!

whoa. First of all, I am not offended, although I am seriously chuckling at all the personalities on mumsnet--kool. I agree with aussie sim or was it flossy (my head is spinning now) who said that the hitting of babies and religious craziness didn't sound like the book she read. And I should know, as I am FROM the bible belt. I seriously didn't get a whiff of their being "Godbotherers", as I like to say. Sooooo, huh???

I think the schedules on BW are pretty reasonable, and seem to be what Christine Hill and others recommend. Actually, that's why I am sounding a little neurotic, though I am not naturally. I have no family nearby for support (other than DS in the STates on speeddial), and my husband works all day, and all my friends are away in the States for august, so it's just me and my DS and I just want a plan, and a happy boy.

Look, the form. top-up situation stemmed from some dumb midwives in the hospital who allowed DS to tear up my boobs. My lac con told me to top up then, as we couldn't feed I was in so much pain. Problem is, he got used to it, hungry boy, and my mat nurse even thought he needed it, so allowed it. So here I am 7.5 weeks later, still topping up. Not sure I can stop, as I now have a bruised RB, and LB is in pain. I have a long trunk (stomach), and cannot get him high enough to meet my boobs with the Bobbies or v-pils or even pillows.

now I am on day 2 of BAbywise, and he is doing better in the sense that he's happier and fuller, and less cranky around the split feed time. In fact, I was so psyched for BW, until last night. I had 2 late nighttime feeds (2:20a and 5:40), as he was waking himself up every 3 hours for a feed. So, as far as sleeping thru the night, GF was actually better. But,he didn't seem to eat enough. it's only day 2 though.

The babywise IS better so far for keeping him happy in daytime--who wouldn't with a whole extra feed. I got more smiles and coos on it, b/c he wasn't worried about food. But, it was harder on me. GF gives you longer breaks, though one less feed. BW is harder b/c I am wiped out from the 3 hr. routine. Today I hardly had time to eat, and I therefore now have a headache. But, he's asleep. BTW, I let him cry to sleep for 15-20 min. today at 5:30 for the first time ever, and he's still aseep from it. (insert applause)

this is getting lengthy. Despite everyone's responses, I still don't know what you mean by, "let him set his own routine". I am a new mum, and I keep hearing how you should set his routine, not him. anyway, is there anyone who can suggest a FLEXIBLE routine for a hungry boy, that gives me just a tiny bit of free time?

BTW, I just got the Weissbluth book, Healthy Sleep habits, Healthy child. Maybe that's the one for me....thanks all, you're all stars! CSF

CCD - glad that we've not scared you off

If you want to give up bfing completely, then you could express the milk off till it runs out/you aren't uncomfortable/engorged. Just in terms of freeing up time you appear to have the worst of both worlds atm - of bfing and formula feeding. Alternatively there are some very experienced bfers/bf counsellors (Tiktok especially) on here who could advise you how to end the top ups.

take care

Sorry catcat- does this book advocate letting a young baby cry for this long to sleep? I wouldnt applause personally. Perhaps gf would be better as I'm sure her way means baby doesnt have to cry for this long.

catcat, I used the Weissbluth book with my first and quite liked it. Hope it goes well for you!

Catcatdelight - have you tried lying down to breastfeed? I have a long body (and weak arms!) and I found this very convenient.

Or holding your baby (or propping him on pillows) like a rugby ball, with his legs under your arm? I'm also not built for breastfeeding but that worked really well for me.

No, Tiktok, it was definitely Babywise - I remember the author's surname. However, nothing I've read about it here was in the chapter or 2 I read and there's no way on earth DH would have thought the things mentioned here were good for his precious firstborn son. It was definitely babywise but I wonder if it was a different version as this thread bears no resemblance to what (little) I read!

As I said though, I do believe this book was partly the reason DS1 lost so much weight but I think that any book which suggests regulating feeds for newborns is dangerous. I'm not defending the book, just defending my recollection of what it said .

CCD, I didn't use any of the strict routines from BW (not that sort of person) but what worked for us (after the blip at the start!) was assuming DS would want feeding every 3 hours. If he woke and was crying before, say, 1.5 hours after the last feed we'd check other things and try to entertain him. If he wouldn't settle, we'd feed him - no question. Also, during the day we wouldn't let him sleep much beyond 4 hours after the last feed. At night he could sleep as long as he liked, obviously!

The only other thing we took from the book was the sleep-feed-play-sleep cycle which meant they didn't have to be fed to sleep every time - they just learnt to srop off themselves without being left to cry.

So, what we did was to gently nudge them towards a routine of feeds that suited our family. They weren't forced into it and we were flexible about it. I knew that they'd need feeding at roughly 7am, 10am, 1pm, 4pm 7pm, 10pm etc and could arrange my day accordingly. And for anyone who thinks I cruelly starved my sons, they were exclusively bf, fed for around 15 minutes only every 3 hours and regularly piled on 1lb a week

You can "set his routine" by using the book routines as a guide and seeing what best suits your DS. If you find he needs an extra feed in the afternoon and a longer nap in the morning, then that's what you do - tweak the books routines so they fit in with your baby. If your DS decides he needs a feed even though he fed only an hour ago, feed him - he could be going through a growth sourt and needs to feed more frequently to build up your milk supply. It is difficult to know what to do as a first time mum - we're not all natural mothers (I know I wasn't) but if you accept that not all babies will slot neatly into a prescribed routine, you'll do fine.

Would add my vote to Soupy's version - sounds fairly familiar, even down to the timing of the feeds!

I left hospital topping ds1 up with formula - again big baby and a few complications with starting feeding. The advice that I was given to get off the topping up was to reduce the amount of formula given in the top-up by 5mls per feed each day ie if topping up by 50mls per feed, the on Day reduce to 45ml each feed, Day 2 to 40ml etc. Took over a week to drop the top-ups but then fed happily for another 7 months.

Is your angst about time an issue about how long you spend feeding, or how much time baby is asleep? You do need to eat esp whlst your b/fing. Mind you I remmeber that at this stage it was Dh's task to do me a packed lunch before he left for work!

As for allowing baby to set a routine vs you setting a routine, you can't set a routine by the clock for a baby - you have to learn to read your baby's cues. Where programs such as contented baby/babywose etc help some of us is it that it helps you read the cues - as Soupy says, if baby is crying shortly after a feed, then hunger may not be the issue. If the baby has been awake for 3 hours or so and is fed, then a nap is in order. For some mums this is obvious and natural, and they don't need any further prompts. For others of us, we're asking the hospital for an instruction manual - after all the car seat has a 16 page one!

For me one of the huge shocks of motherhood was the number of different opinions on everything baby and childcare-related. I'd been through 4 years of fertility treatment, where broadly there is a fairly similar way of diagnosis and treatment regardless of where you are, and even in pregnancy the advice you got in books/on the net/ in real life was broadly similar (other than on what you can/can't eat!). But once the baby is born, then anything goes! For something as "fundamental" as establishing breastfeeding, I was given the advice of 12 different professional individuals in less than 5 days - and no 2 of them agreed!

The Ezzo book was revised shortly after the really horrible version came out, I believe. I think that any recent-ish version is a bit more, um, rational. I do think that the Ezzos are evil, but that fact is not evidenced by the book out now.

Catcat, GF mentions the Weissbluth book in her bibliography and you'll find a lot of similarities in the two. A number of differences, too, of course. But take what's helpful for you and try that.

Oops, just rereading other messages. I should have added that the Weissbluth book gives some great advice on how to read signals. Not as good as the stuff on here, but still it's interesting to read it.

sorry to butt in!

from reading this my ds seems to be feeding a lot more often than everyone else. He's 13wks and totally bf and feeds at 8.30am 11.00 1.00 4.00 6.30 7.30 8pm and then sleeps from about 8.30 til 6am. we count 6am as night time so he goes back to sleep after that feed until 8ish. he also sleeps during the day at about 9.30 for 30mins and sometimes at around 2ish for an hour or so.

He's pretty flexible though and will go longer between feeds if i entertain him enough or if we're out shopping or something. anyone else feeding this often?