Gina Ford vs. Babywise

[catcatdelight]

I've had my 7.5 week old DS on GF since birth, and am going to give BAbywise a go. Reason being, he is a hungry boy (not out of control hungry, just hungry), and it looks to me like he gets one extra feeding on Babywise and they are spaced closer together, which is better. He gets cranky in the afternoons, and cannot seem to make it to the GF 5pm split feed nicely. He 's not sleeping thru nite yet on GF. We put him down at b/t 11p and 12, after the one hour feed/wake GF recommends. He then wakes up at 3:40am, and I feed him a bottle. But then he grizzles and doesn't sleep so well b/t 4a and 7a. He's usually up at 6:30a needing a feed. BTW, my normal feed is 20 minutes on the left breast and 20 minutes on the right breast and then from 80ml-125 ml formula top up. He gets topped up at every feed,a s he's so hungry. (though, he has gained 12 oz. per week, so I am a little concerned about overfeeding).

My question is, is there anyone out there who has a similar situation to me, and has an opinion on BAbywise vs. Gina Ford, part. for hungry boys? I'd like to know which one will get him to sleeping thru the night faster. Also, his best sleep of the day on GF is b/t 7p and 11p. He could sleep all night from that feed, and I'd rather he have that great sleep after the 11pm obviously. anyone?

Beansmum, I know plenty of mums who are feeding even more often than this - it looks as if you're having a more intensive evening feeding schedule than some of the books go for (though Babywhisperer does suggest cluster feeding like this). But if sleep is your thing (and it is mine!) then it sounds as if it is going really well. I don't think that I was ever religious about the exact number of feeds per day. That was one of the things that appealed to me about Babywise - as it went on a 3-4 hour routine it didn't matter if it went "wrong" as the next cycle was only a couple of hours away at most (but as Babywise isn't that popular in the UK it probably won't mean anything). GF seemed less forgiving in that you had to wait until next morning to reset things.

Beansmum - those timings seem pretty similar to how I fed dd at about that age - except the evening feed just seemed to be one long one from about 7pm - 9pm (or later). I gave up worrying about the number of feeds cos I used to loose count!!! The important thing is that you are both happy with it.

OK, so now I am just wondering if I should wake him for the 10/11pm feed, or see if he can determine his own schedule on a trial run. He loves to sleep longer from 7pm onwards, so maybe I shouldn't wake him now that it's night (like my sis says), but unlike what GF and BW and others say.

I'ts true, b/c I am BF and FF, i'ts the worst of all worlds. I will try reducing the feeds as ladymuck said to do. BW only allows a one hour + nap, and GF even less unless it's lunchtime, so there's no time for much of anthing. He doesn't like going to sleep in the daytime, but once he's there, he sleeps quite well. Hence, the crying to sleep trial run, which BW OK'd.

PS--someone in this thread said that bottle feeding basically undo's the goodness of BF. So not true. Any bit of BM is good,no matter how small, and if topped up with formula, a fact that all doctors and the medical community support.

CCD, I'd be tempted not to wake him and see how it goes. It may mean you'll get woken for a feed at an unsociable hour in the night but you'll have gained your evening back for some Adult Time which is nice.

CCD, I haven't got time to read through all these posts to check what someone said about formula, but giving formula will affect your ability to produce milk. Your body produces milk as a direct result of the baby's sucking- the more he sucks, the more he produces. It is not just replacing the volume that he removes, the sucking action on the nipples also helps keep the supply going. This is why expressing isn't as effective as feeding for keeping the supply up. If you replace breast feeds with formula, your body won't be getting the stimulation it needs to keep producing milk; eventually the supply will tail off. I expect tiktok will correct me if I'm wrong, but I would say that if you are succeeding with b/feeding, 8 weeks is a little early to be adding formula, especially if it is just an attempt to get the baby to sleep better.

Am only 41/2 months pregnant but my brains just decided to lock-on to baby-feeding ideas, so here I am. Gina Ford is one book we're dipping into for ideas at the moment, just wondering (haven't read every message here yet so sorry if it's here already) - has anyone followed the idea of giving the late night feed as a formula bottle in the first week, while breast-feeding the rest of the time? Is there a danger that baby won't go back to breast milk then?

I think catcat was decrying the notion that formula undoes the 'goodness' of bf, tissy....and she is of course right, that any breastmilk is good.

But topping up does reduce the stim of the breastmilk supply, and this can eventually mean (at worst) no milk at all. It's also a hassle.

Catcat - I understand the issues facing you about dropping the top ups. I think they would be helped with some decent assessment from someone who knows their stuff.

Leaving a young baby to cry for 15-20 minutes (outside an emergency situation) is not good, sorry, but of course I am aware that not everyone will agree with me....if this is supported in the Babywise book, it is entirely consistent with the authors' views expressed elsewhere.

Why would you want to do that? Sounds lots of hassle when you can stick baby on boob. There wouldnt be any benefits and would risk breastfeeding.

Have just read more messages and see there's lots of discussion re. formula....I'd still like to know if anyone did do GF idea in first week though please

catcat- one of the reasons i couldn't follow gina ford was that i would hate waking ds at night. at first he was only going from 8.30 til 1ish but at least i had my evenings to myself and he has gradually stretched out that sleep until it takes him through to 6am. maybe you should try leaving him to sleep and see what happens. also it sounds like he's gaining enough weight and probably doesn't need to be topped up. babies just like to suck sometimes, especially at night and if you give him a bottle he will probably take it whether he's hungry or not.

CatCat: I followed GF except I never woke DS up for an 11pm feed. He wouldn't go to sleep at 7pm when he was younger, closer to 8 or even 9 sometimes and so I would let him stay asleep and he would wake around 3 or 4, eventually sleeping through till 7 at 4.5mths when he discovered the joys of sucking his thumb.

Re the problem with having a long body, what about laying down to feed - this should get by that problem and is a very relaxing way to feed (you just have to make sure you both don't fall asleep after one boob). I would try to cut down the formula and build up your own breastmilk. A trick my MW came up with for me when my DS preferred the bottle to the boob was to only offer him water in the bottle after the boob and it took less than a day for him to realise that he would be better off getting milk from my boobs. As you point out you will just have no time in your day if you are both breastfeeding and preparing bottles - and then before you know it you will be pureeing veges and wondering when the last time was that you washed your hair.

I know how it is to be isolated from family and friends with first baby and sadly I didn't find MN till I was past the worst of it. I think you will find MN a godsend, so long as you don't let it rob you of sleep.

Just to add my ha'penny worth to beansmum and Tissy's posts. DS also fed every 2-ish hours from birth, and luckily I got the swing of bf very quickly. But he was growing like mad, so clearly needed the volume. In spite of doing so well, I was on my knees with exhaustion by 10 weeks. I made his last feed before bedtime a formual feed, and he immediately slept for a 4 hour stretch - bliss! Ideally he wouldn't have had formula at all, but as the vast majority of his food was breastmilk I didn't beat myself up about it. I got more sleep, felt happier and so did DS. DH really enjoyed giving him his bottle and am sure it helped them bond.

As for the routine thing, I must admit to being a bit of GF lady. But I tweak it too. He gets up at 7 / 7.30 am, and conks out himself for a nap at 9-ish like it says in the book. The lunchtime nap can be anytime between 12 and 2 and I leave him for up to 2 hours. Bedtime starts about 6 and he's back in hi cot by 7 - 7.30, but I start the routine earlier is he seems particularly pooped. He is demand fed during the day and we are both happy as larry.

I realise it can all be daunting with the hundreds of different opinions, but I see this as a positive thing. If there was only one way to do something, and you couldn;t manage it, you would feel like a failure. With several different ways, you can try one thing and move on to the next if that doesn't work. Vive la difference!

catcat.
I did GF with dd (now 2.4) and am doing with ds (4 months) All the messages telling you to relax and not stick to the routines (any routines) so strictly are right - but probably not helpful when being able to follow a routine is one of the only things you are clinging to to get through the day with your sanity intact. But it really is worth modifying either routine slightly to fit in with what you, and your baby want. Do try to remember, they are there to help you both, not as a test.

With dd I stuck to the routine quite rigidly, but with ds less so. I found that if I woke him at 11 for his last feed he would still wake at 2, then again at 7, then one night I couldn't be bothered to wake him, so didn't - he still woke at 2. After that we cut out the 11pm feed and ds carried on waking at 2 until about 12 weeks when he started sleeping from 8-8.
Re the crying - there is a difference between leaving a baby grumbling for 15-20 minutes, and leaving them sobbing their hearts out. I'm sure you know the difference and are confident that what you did was OK.
And re extra feeds - if your baby wants them, then shove them in - it may not help him to sleep faster though. Ds went through various needs for extra feeds - at one point he had to have another at 9am, and even now we still have a 5.30 then 7.30 feed before bed at 8 rather than GF's single post bath feed. It's not exactly what the books say - but it works for us. I hope you can find a routine that works for you.

Batlady,

We had an evening formula bottle for ds2 (we also had it for ds1, but you'll have noted that our feeding took a while to get established). Didn't disrupt his feeding, though usually he nursed from me first. Had hoped that he would sleep for longer, but not really - I think that he was around the 5 months stage before he slept through. Did have the plus that dad was involved in feeding and that I could escape briefly on the odd night.

Prufrock and Poo 2--thank you! I have finally figured out,a s of yesterday, that your way is what works for us too. Forget Babywise...too exhausting for me, which makes me snappish to DH which is not good. DS wants back on GF, but HIS own way. My ante natal teach said to do one big bottle feed in daytime everyday for him and call her in a week, as she thinks he's hungry. She thinks he's getting little BM, and then by the time he finishes on the boobs, he's lost energy for sucking the top-up bottle.

She also said chuck the books, including hers if I like, as they undermine my confidence and ability to tap into my DS's natural biorhythms. I may quit BF'ing soon, as my boy's too hungry to wean him off formula or sub water. Even when I lie down, it hurts from soreness. AA cup (diff to get right angle) + long body + top-ups since Day 1 is the problem. (BTW, substituting water to teach him that he'll only get BM now is a bit harsh for a growing brain and body. And sleep is so important for brain power and dev'l, so I don't think that's a smart way to go. Neither does my ob/gyn FIL.)

Now that were back on on GF, but our way, he's back to 3:20 wake up and then 6:15 or 6:30. Instead of waiting for the 5/7 split feed, I am just doing a 4pm feed and then a 7:30pm. Oh, my ante natal teach says all babies this age can do one 5+ hour sleep. So, we will continue to wake him at 10 or 11, and get that 5 hr sleep after that one. we don't want the 5 hr to be after the 7pm put down, obviously. cheers!

Tissy,
the whole point of my original question was that I am not succeeding with BFing. (I am not just trying to get him to sleep thru the night) Success in my book, means better than average. I would say I am capable of it, but not enough to satisfy DS. And I have never expressed but just a drop, but then he does have yellow in his poo, and we see the BM in his mouth, so we know he gets some BM.

Some can BF well, some cannot. Those that do, you're so fortunate. Those that cannot, struggle with it, kill themselves with worry, and then worry about judgement from others, whether it's perceived or real. I think if you have trouble BFing, then even doing 6 weeks is to be commended, and you should feel v. good about yourself, quite frankly. I will keep trying, of course, but it ain't easy.

Catcat- how much you can express is NOT an indicator of how much milk you have. The best way to increase your milk supply is to feed on demand. Forget the books and just feed your baby when he's hungry. If he drinks formula after a feed it does not mean you have insufficient milk. Babies suck, that's what they do.
You need to speak to a bf expert. Try the nct helpline.
Dont worry about sleeping through yet. Just enjoy your baby.

How can your antenatal teacher know how much bm he is getting?

Hi catcatdelight. I haven't followed all this thread but just wanted to say that I agree with your last post - 'if you have trouble bf'ing then even doing 6 weeks is to be commended'. Well done for getting as far as you have

Catcat, everyone should feel good about whatever bf they do....it is certainly not easy for everyone to get bf going well, and if you have been topping up since the start you have done really well to still be bf at all. Just dropping the bottles, or giving water, would not be an option in your case...it would have to be a sustained and gradual 'campaign' .

Not sure where your a/n teacher gets her info from. Many babies of 8 weeks do manage a five hour stretch. Many don't. But if you can get one, I do agree that having it in the 'right' place is better! Yes, sleep is important for growth and development, but usually babies can be relied on to manage to get their sleep somehow, even if it is in smaller 'portions' over 24 hours

Catcatdelight, your first post said, "I'd like to know which one will get him to sleeping thru the night faster. "

As tiktok says, you have done well to still be breastfeeding at all. My point was, the more formula you give, the less breastmilk your baby will take, and the less you will make. The answer to a hungry baby is to feed him longer and more often, to stimulate the milk supply. He will take what he needs, and sleep when he needs.

If you try to make a baby fit a routine in a book, then if that routine doesn't suit the baby, then he won't thrive. I know there are many breastfeeders a out there who have found that GF (for example) worked, but there are many who "tweaked" it, and many who didn't. We demand fed, and I agree it's exhausting- I myself posted many times about my perceived inadequacy, and lack of sleep, but it did all sort itself out in the end, and we found a "routine" that suited us.

I'm glad you have found a system that works for you. If you want to keep breastfeeding, I second hercules suggestion that you speak to a breastfeeding counsellor, such as one from the NCT. I was told a lot of rubbish by so called "experts" (sadly mostly midwives and HV), and I think you may have been misdirected by well-meaning professionals too.You say that your normal feed is 20 mins each side then a top-up of 80 -125 ml. That amazes me. I suspect that your ds is getting plenty of foremilk (watery milk for thirst-quenching)and not enough hind milk. Have you tried letting him feed from one side until he seems dissatisfied, then swapping him over, and again letting him feed as long as he wants? That way he'd get more of the rich hind milk, and need less formula. Clearly this discussion wasn't meant to be about your technique, but please do speak to a BFC.

tissy, that's b/c if I am going to pre-pick a philosophy, obviously, I prefer the one that down the road gets him sleeping thru faster. But his happiness and hunger quenching is primary concern. I am sure you feel the same way.

GF and BAbywise differ so much, so wanted opinions. They both have fans and enemies however. Now I know my boy prefers GF tweaked version and BAbywise makes me too exhausted, so there ya have it.

I was doing the one boob only with 5 minutes opposite boob until 7 weeks, but a friend suggested 20LB, and 20 RB. So neither option is enough for him--he still needs a top up. BTW, he's not a little bruiser. He's actually quite svelte, and his dad and I are both tall and slim, so not sure there's too much to worry about. Although he does gain as much as 10-12 lbs a week. I'm going to ask my ped in a week. see ya.

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