Gather round all pro-bfeeding anti-formula MNers I have a question..........................................

[Malaleche]

Shouldnt there be a be-all and end-all bible of breastfeeding info, experiences and statistics etc which every woman should be given at the first pregnancy check-up and MADE to read (yes, I know, maybe we could be examined on it and !) , which has been written by the WHO and breastfeeding experts and which could be the final and last word on bfeeding(...until new evidence means a new edition has to be brought out.....)

I just dont understand why there has to be so much conflicting advice out there and why some women are still so woefully ignorant about bfeeding at the end of the day....

I also agree absolutely that formula should be avaliable only on prescription but before that happens there needs to be a lot more education and (24 hr)support avaliable or there would be a lot of hungry babies and suffering mothers out there....and why don't govs give 9 months maternity leave on full pay if the WHO recommends 6 months exclusive bfeeding (am adding 3 months for establishing weaning)?

gess - if you read my previous contributions to this thread, you can see very well that I said that....ie that mother's emotional and mental health, circumstances and so on are part of the equation, and that no one should be judged.

I really don't want to have to repeat myself in every post

barb - totally agree and keep saying this on MN till blue in face....any promotion at all is pointless without the help and skilled intervention when necessary. Promotion without this is a horrible trick to play on mothers - telling them how great bf is, and then when they listen and do it, not to provide help for them.

I really don't understand the point of this thread anymore - aren't we all agreeing that bf should be encouraged but that the current state of education and support is woeful?

I haven't misunderstood the paper - I haven't read it. If it is saying that breast milk has a protective effect on immunity then my original question still stands - why is it damaging to mix feed as long as the baby is also getting the majority of the protective effect from the breast milk? Also, I was under the impression that antibodies passed from mother and child are only there for the first 6 weeks or so? And ifthe mother hadn't say had chicken pox herself, the chances are the baby might still end up being taken to the doctors/hospital with chicken pox? And what if the bf mother was malnourished, deficient in a particular vitamin whatever - then surely some ff might be beneficial.

As I said, I bf for a year and support it wholeheartedly (particularly in the third world) but I do think some people are in danger of becoming a bit evangelical about it and damaging the women who are not able to make bf work.

I didn't say you hadn't said that tiktok.

Agree barb- I think these threads are incredibly alienating - and often seem to descend into something very patronising. Not sure how that helps.

I think the problem with cows milk is that it can cause some inflammation of the gut and increase the risk of leaky gut- certainly not exclusively breastfeeding means that you don't get the whole protection from gut bacteria (although a mother with dodgy gut bacteria could also mess up that) and that can lead to leaky gut etc etc, so it can be a problem. This was of interest to us as ds1 (mix fed- 90%bfed for a year) is severely autistic and we think a leaky gut contributed. Which is why I was quite keen to exclusively bfeed ds3, although that didn't happen- other factors and all that. The actual "damage" from formula will depend a lot on individual susceptibilites though.

I thought mothers passed on helpful antibodies to her child for as long as she breastfeeds, and even the most malnourished mother produces milk which is still hugely superior to any formula you can buy. This is from the information I have read, anyway.

i agree with fiofio.

In my bounty pack there was a small booklet about a cartoon family starting up breastfeeding. Was quite useful for dd, although something more comprehensive would be preferrable.
(Just dipping my toe in and leaving)

Tiktok you are so right - I really had to go against the HVs to persist in bf and they made me feel like a selfish bitch for trying - one comment I got was "you professional women, it's all about what you want isn't it". This was only 2 years ago and I managed to bf despite the medical profession not becasue of it. I also sought help from an NCT bf councillor at one point who was not particularly helpful either. I am a strong, mid-thirties, educated woman and it was hard - it's no wonder that younger women don't even try. And they gave me completely wrong information about my baby being underweight when he wasn't - yet we still haven't got the accurate weight charts for bf babies in use! Disgusting, personally I would be interested in lobbying for this and pushing through the law about not hassling women bf in public, rather than going on about how damding ff is and making people feel even more guilty.

lets stop beating ourselves up about using formula and getting defensive doesn't help.

the facts are that breast is best and anyone wanting to challenge that fact can research to find conclusive evidence that breastfeeding works.

what i would like to see happen is mothers who are breastfeeding are not only encouraged, but children finding it normal and acceptable!

Barb - yes, the thread is a bit pointless!

Don;t know where you have your info about antibodies - they are always there. They are made dynamically, as and when they're needed, when the mother comes into contact with pathogens. She makes antibodies which are then mirrored in the breastmilk - this process doesn't cease. There are other anti-immune factors in breastmilk as wekk - antibodies are only one part of the way bf protects, and helps develop the immune system.

No, if the mother is malnourished and deficient in a vitamin, then formula would absolutely not be better. If the mother is Vit D deficient (because of poor diet and not going out side, for instance) then the baby could have vit supplements direct.

Can't answer the chicien pox thing without taking time out to research it, sorry.

i can't explain it any more clearly - the dose related effect is that more breastfeeding means more protection against illness, because the baby is getting more immune boosting substances. If the baby is getting more formula, then he's missing out. If he's getting a lot of formula then he's missing out more.

Hope that makes it clear

I don't remember recieving anything when I had my children about the pros and cons of formula, or seeing any comparasons to breastmilk with regards to ingredients etc, and nobody explained to me how your body works when breastfeeding, supply and demand, how long it can take for breastfeeding to become established, how it can be painful for a while etc etc. I think sometimes health professionals are afraid of 'hurting peoples feelings' or 'making Mums feel guilty' but that helps nobody in the end and is a bit patronising I feel.

Also, if you are having a hard time establishing breastfeeding, very tired and a bit moany, it seems to me that its easier for Health Visitors to just tell you to top up with formula, because it is an easy and less time consuming solution than sticking with the breastfeeding exclusively. I remember one HV saying to me 'why are you doing this to yourself? Give her formula and give yourself a break'. Hmmmmm sure she meant well.

gess - you are right about formula affecting the lining of the gut. This increases the risk of infection, and adds to the dose related effect.

Fio - i said infant feeding - however they are fed. Not just b/feeding counselling. Full support for all parents feeding an infant to 12 months. Surely someone to give you support and help in your difficult circumstances would have been welcomed?

I feel like you are deliberately seeing "Breastfeeding" in my posts where there isnt.

this is it tinymum...

only when mums-to-be are informed, with balanced evidence based research, will they/we be able to make a balanced opinion.

unfortuneatly, most formula manufacturers, don't want to give their customers a break-down of ingredients and sources of those ingredients.

and also, breastmilk has no one formula. it changes consistency, make-up and type, depending on mother's food, fat stores, environment and depending on baby's age, need, activity.

this mudding of the waters makes it difficult to understand unless you know a little about biology and how the female body works.

Well I don't kow VVQ- people who don't "get" the situation are next to useless tbh. They can be more damaging. It's like SALTs who aren't autism trained- hopeless and demoralising. To offer support that was useful a breastfeeding cousellor would have to be able to undertand the wider picutre. Like barb I found the NCT one I apporached (with ds1- so nothing too tricky) failry useless- god knows what she would have been like with ds3.

barb- of the mother isn't immune to chickenpox then the baby will have no specific protection from chickenpox. Likewise measles (which is one of my big issues with the current vaccination schedule, but that's a whole other subject!) Most anitbody protection is passed in the early days, especially via colostrum. Not all though. When ds2 was exposed to chickenpox at 8 months the paed didn't think that me still bfeeding would make that much difference, although he thought he might still have protection from earlier. Having said that, I think it did make a differenceas despite repeated exposures he didn;t get it until 4 (was fed until over 2), whereas ds3 who got colostrum and not much else had cpox as a baby. I asked around (highly unscientifically) and it seemed a bit of a general pattern. It's tricky to research this meaningfully though.

My MW with ds3 was very good though.

Perhaps the answer is better training for HV's and (MW's to an extent?) as they are in a good position to be sympathetic to the needs of the family. My HV has been very, very supportive over the years and my MW was excellent.

Gess, you say "Most antibody protection is passed in the early days, especially via colostrum."

This is just not correct. You don't get a bunch of antibodies and then nothing. It's dymanic and long-lasting.

In addition, antibody protection is just one of many ways breastmilk supports and develops the immune system.

Er....dynamic, I mean

That's why I said not all.

only read op

i had no choice but to put dd1 on infatrini (a high calorie milk) after weeks of expressing my milk. she has lots of feeding problems and now has a gastrostomy.

dd2 is bf and she was born 11 weeks early so again i had a hard time but got her to bf.

i am all for bf and think everyone should at least give it a try. however, you cannot force anybody to do this. my sister has had 2 ds and has never bf them or even tried to when they were born. it's her choice and although i don't agree it's not my place to say anything.

i have now changed my nappies to reusable nappies after getting advice on here about it. again there isn't much advice given about this, should they also ban disposable nappies?

how you choose to bring up your child is up to you. nobody can ever make the decision for you and you should not make a decision for anybody else on how to bring up their child.

i agree more help should be given to women but if somebody doesn't want to bf it's their choice.