Gather round all pro-bfeeding anti-formula MNers I have a question..........................................

[Malaleche]

Shouldnt there be a be-all and end-all bible of breastfeeding info, experiences and statistics etc which every woman should be given at the first pregnancy check-up and MADE to read (yes, I know, maybe we could be examined on it and !) , which has been written by the WHO and breastfeeding experts and which could be the final and last word on bfeeding(...until new evidence means a new edition has to be brought out.....)

I just dont understand why there has to be so much conflicting advice out there and why some women are still so woefully ignorant about bfeeding at the end of the day....

I also agree absolutely that formula should be avaliable only on prescription but before that happens there needs to be a lot more education and (24 hr)support avaliable or there would be a lot of hungry babies and suffering mothers out there....and why don't govs give 9 months maternity leave on full pay if the WHO recommends 6 months exclusive bfeeding (am adding 3 months for establishing weaning)?

Agree Ladymuck- I was made to feel terrible about mixed feeding by a bfeeding counsellor. It was mixed feeding or no bfeeding - and I knew it wasn't ideal but did it, ended up being able to drop bottles and went back to exclusive.

However, that is classed as a failure by many.

And these threads do make my teeth itch- olive s right.

Ladymuck, you're right about personal support from friends being crucial, and the research shows that this makes a real difference.

However, this should be alongside expert professional help where it's needed.

When bf is supported well by m/wives and HVs - that is, they know how to fix problems before they start and to get mothers going well - then the majority of women will have a straightforward, enjoyable experience and this can be shared with other women to support them.

When mothers have a suportive group of breastfeeding friends, they breastfeed for longer - this is the ethos behind 'peer support' but it doesn't have to be formalised necessarily. Informal support from friends is what happens in societies where most people breastfeed for a (comparatively) long time. It's chicken and egg, though: you need this sort of support to help women to bf and you need lots of women bf in order to get this sort of support

Fio - I know she wants it on prescription, I have knocked that argument on the head and killed it, I think

Not the same as banning it, though!

banning it from shops.

Malaleche - the issue of why governments don't give mothers sufficient maternity leave on full pay to allow them to breastfeed in accordance with WHO recommendations which they themselves have adopted is a very interesting one.

On the one hand governments exhort mothers to breastfeed exclusively for six months and to continue breastfeeding while weaning until at least the child's second birthday; on the other, they don't give mothers full financial support to do this.

Who do governments expect to support breastfeeding mothers financially?

• mothers themselves
• fathers
• someone else

?

Ds is nearly 3 now, I am a failed breastfeeder for reasons that I have gone into before... When I first joined MN I would get really angry at some of the breast v formula threads and I flounced (very quietly) a couple of times. These days it doesn't seem to get to me as much, I know I tried my best and that is all you can do, but on reading this thread I could literally feel the colour rising up my neck and my fists clenching as I read the absurd first post.

Malacleche, I believe you have got it all wrong. Everyone knows breast is best and those who choose not to bfeed are unlikely to start just because they are being forced into that position. To improve bfeeding rates you need to provide better support and focus on the women who DO want to bfeed but fail at the early stages for various reasons.

Thank god for Tiktok is all I can say.

Well sometimes conflicting advice comes about because what worked for one mother/baby doesn't work for another yet the advice is valid. I suppose many HCPs who are trying to give good advice might just be talking about what worked for them and not seeing that it isn't one-size-fits-all (I know this happened to me when I was trying to breastfeed).

Malaleche - any chance of you delting this thread (its title is a wee bit incendiary and doesn't really reflect the discussion you wanted to start?)

I think its important to improve the number of women who start off b/feeding in some areas, as well as improving support across the board from several weeks into b/feeding up until 12 months.

It is the main source of nutrition in the first year, afterall.

As I said earlier - I am glad I got DD's milk on prescription. I have no problems with getting a repeat prescription ever 6 or so weeks, and follow ups with the GP every 6 months. This is to ensure that DD is doing well, checking her general progress etc. At £9 a tin, its a fucking rip off when you have no choice - irrespective of your purse size. Anyone who says different is a fuckwit, IMO. Formula over the counter isnt 'banning' it, either. Thats a bit of a leap, i think.

I think the b/feeding support in this country is dire. I'd love to see much more regular, and plentiful visits from HV's or MW's who do their various checks after birth, with focus on supporting a mother with infant feeding (however a baby is fed). There are so many questions on how to best nourish your baby (how much, how often, etc) Formula is too 'new' a product for info to be passed down through families, and formula companies get away with giving little away on their tins. The guidelines on the tins are often seen as being set in stone and can worry that their lo is not getting enough or too much. Professionals who know how much a baby should be getting and how often, who know about growth spurts and effects on b/feeding. Who know about latch problems, recognise that not all women have the same shape breasts. Who dont give lazy advice, who dont prescribe formula (yes they do prescribe through their advice!) as a way to get a baby to sleep through. Who just know.

The more good advice from professionals whose job it is to support infant feeding through supporting mothers, the more good advice will filter through to their peers, and down through family etc.

Yes, I suppose that is an 'ideal'. I'd still like to strive towards that.

nogoes - I have every sympathy for women who wished to breastfeed but who, for whatever reason, were not able to do so. I certainly don't believe that formula should be anything other than freely available in supermarkets etc.

However, I don't agree that everyone knows that breast is best.

Just yesterday my sister was telling me that one of her BILs has requested that his wife not breastfeed their second child (soon to be born) as he felt left out first time round - the first baby was only breastfed for three months as the mother went back to work after that.

My sister heard this from her MIL, who fully supports her son's position.

An anecdote, I know, but there are plenty.

Haven't read the whole thread. But prescription only formular? Wouldn't that mean it was free. GP's time taken up by mums demanding a prescription for formula? The government funding formular fed babies? I', sure GP's would be all to happy to write out the prescripton.

Anna, what a sad story about the BIL feeling left out....I can only agree with you he has no real understanding of the situation. There are a zillion ways for a man not to be left out - babies need far more care than just feeding and he can do as much as he likes

If he does know, then what sort of man puts his own feelings of being 'left out' for a few months over the health of a baby???

Lynette - read the whoe thread. I don;t think anyone is arguing for prescription-only formula any more.

What - having properly trained professionals whose job it is to provide regular support for mothers of infants?

Not sure how family life/work situations/mothers health would come into that. Except that they would get the appropriate support they needed under difficult circumstances.....

Am puzzled as to what you mean Fio.

the 'what worked for them' thing is a big problem, i think, even with peer support.
so ladymuck and gess say that they successfully mix fed, which is marvelous for them and , but the truth is that mix feeding kills bfing for a lot of women so it represents a risk that they should know about in advance of introducing formula.

afaic, it's not the introduction of formula that's the issue but the fact that breastfeeding might then fail. please note it's that bfing would fail, not the mother.

so i certainly feel a burden of responsibility to poiint that out to mothers considering mix feeding, and i wish i'd been told it myself. in fact i was told the opposite, that everything would be fine, and it was a loads of boswellox in my case.

tiktok - yes, I agree, very sad. And my sister was particularly disappointed to hear that story as recently she had been revising her opinion of that BIL upwards... he's not a bad, unthinking man at all (did an MBA and then worked for years in Africa for Médecins Sans Frontières).

The point was just to illustrate that people still haven't "got it" about breastfeeding. To MNers that seems totally unbelievable because people on here are so informed and interested in doing the right thing for their children.

I also mixed feeds, and I DID know that it may kill breastfeeding, but, same as others, it was that or totally formula feed. I was able to go back to exclusive bf after a few months, fed through to 7 months. (Then gave up cos I wanted to!) I def agree that a really comprehensive guide should be given to all new mums, also info on websites, helplines etc. But, also need to say, that my first few weeks with my first baby were utterly ruined by trying to bf, and being told I must not give up, mix feed etc, by midwives. So much pressure from other mums to bf, just a gibbering wreck by the end of it. With number 2, gave ff on day 2, and mixed fed for 8 months, and I didn't care if I couldn't bf at the beginning, I just wanted to enjoy my baby, and resisit the pressure from people who think formula should only be on prescription and we should take farking a-level bf before we're allowed to leave hospital! Sorry, v. long!

But it is possible - even if for wrong reasons. With ds1 I eventually gave in to extreme pressure from stupid HV's to "top-up" at 5 months as he was supposedly failing to thrive (between 2nd and 6th Percentile) - even tho we now know those charts are bollocks - which I wouldn't do next time but I did then go on to bf successfully right up til he was one - when he chose to give up both breast and the one bottle and use cups. He is now a perfectly healthy, strapping 2 year old with a good appettite.

I completely support the benefits of bf and would be extremely upset if I couldn't bf my next baby but I don't quite see the eveilness of formula thing if it is used in moderation with breast milk and food later on. Is it just the fact that it can stop bf that people object to? Otherwise I always felt it was a good thing that ds was getting one bottle of something with defined vitamins etc in it as well as my breast milk to cover all the bases so to speak. Also, DP got a lot out of doing the one bottle feed in the evenings.

I was told the same aitch "My two had breast and bottle and did fine, he will be fine and you will be able to breastfeed" (ds was 4 days old and jaundiced at this point) (mind you it's not that I believed her, I just couldn't at that point get him to feed from me so it was expressing and formula or nothing)