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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

tik tok

482 replies

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 10:01

I have just wrote such a lengthy reply and just lost it just before I posted it, how annoying so this will probably be a bit blunt, as I haven't got time to go into detail all over again!

I take great offence in you saying that if I have only done a 3-day course at Unicef I am not allowed to call myself a bf counsellor( sorry this is one word, I have always had a mental block on how to spell it, even though I use it lots, and its my job - its really frustrating!) as you said in one reply "I am not a professional but a volunteer" so does this mean you have had no training as such? as in the next reply you say " I am a Nct bf counsellor" So how come you are allowed to call yourself but I am not????

My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course, which is one of the most respected in the country.

I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years , this is where I have had huge amounts of experiance and it is here where I have usually found that feeding more regularly than 2 hourly after the age of 3-4 weeks and if the mother has a well established milk supply can be helped, and many mothers if they are honest will say they are allowing their baby to snack when they want, rather than encouraging proper full feeds. I have a very long testimonial record for mothers who when I went to see them they were feeding very regularly as in every 30 mins -1hour thinking thats what they should be doing. However once I had explained to them to look out for other sign for example crying cause they are tired etc and obviously making sure that there are no problems of tongue tie, poor milk supply, over milk supply etc , we could encourage the baby to demand feed 2/3hourly instead. I for one who bf my own daughter til she was 7 months,if I was feeding her every 30 mins -an hour would of welcomed someone to tell me this needn't be the case. So I still stand by the fact that if the baby is over 3-4 weeks old and the mother has a GOOD milk supply 2 hourly feeds should easily be maintainable, and it is quite often mis-guided information why the mother is allowing the baby to snack every 30mins, or poor attachment, milk supply etc could be a reason for it. however it in most cases can be successfully turned around to frequent feeds every 2-3 hours.

To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years, here I did see the extremes where babies are being encouraged to feed every 30 mins-1hour to help with the mothers milk supply.

I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now.

I do feel like i have been interogated by you, and will not be posting on here any more, you have made that impossible for me anyway by tarnishing my name. So keep up the good work helping all those mothers out there and lets hope you never word anything wrong. Of course I wouldn't do this in real life, it was one of the very few times I had been on here, and I was just writing facts,and my opinions wrongly not thinking about emotional ,sleep deprived mothers who may have read it, how it was most certainly not meant. I hope to have learnt by this mistake, and think more when I am writing.

If you feel like you need to justify yourself to me , like I did to you, please do not worry, if you want to call yourself a bf counsellor, reading your threads you sound more than capable to do this. Though please do not doubt other professionals. We are all going to have slightly different views depending on our experiances and qualifications and training, certainly doesn't need one to attack another, this most certainly would put the fear of god, into already confused new mothers, who feel they don't know who to trust.

OP posts:
Place · 02/01/2007 23:20

Hi loopybear. Do you take 'metformin'? there is a suggestion that if you can manage to get pregnant with PCOS then there is a good chance with proper and appropriate help and support, that you should be able to breastfeed too, nothing however in life in guaranteed. You'll make a good move being posted near to tiktok.

Place · 02/01/2007 23:21

I would be interested to hear whereabouts in the country that lasimdaisy works - it might explaina few things for me!

Place · 02/01/2007 23:32

BTW - in case you wondered where I popped up from. I've been an ABM counsellor for 22 years updating my knowledge at least annually. I wrote a module of the latest ABM training. I train counsellors, am a supervisor and mentor, and am currently Chair of the ABM. The previous but one ABM chair to me was until recently a UNICEF course trainer. My knowledge and skills learnt as an ABM counsellor, enabled me to qualify as an IBCLC Lactation Consultant some years ago.

I would like to say thanks to all the counsellors from different organisations on this site whose skills all dovetail very well with each other, and provides our own support and updating service.

tiktok · 03/01/2007 00:02

I am delighted ABM people have come on here - I warned daisymlaisy she would be annoying ABM with her idea that the contents of their training could be done in a week!!

Daisy - I am sorry, and I have been very patient with you, and tried to explain things, but you have not taken my suggestion to take time to think about it all and maybe do some more reading and thinking. You keep on coming up with ideas that reveal your limitations - 'to maximise ongoing milk production, the milk must be removed frequently and as completely as possible' for instance....'maximising ongoing milk production' is hardly ever necessary. Most of us could probably breastfeed triplets if we had to, but we don't need to produce any more than our baby actually needs, and we don't need to 'maximise' it! And we have to, according to you, encourage the baby to feed until the breast feels 'emptyish' - well, not normally. Older babies' mothers often have breasts which feel 'emptyish' all the time; breastfeeding goes perfectly well without having to do any encouraging - just enable the baby to feed according to his needs.

None of this is splitting hairs - it's important how you express yourself, and it's important to be clear and confident in what you understand. You have not understood my point about the length of a feed either.

No one - at least not me - has slammed the unicef course, but no one has come on to agree with you that it qualifies you to be a breastfeeding counsellor.

My main point has always been to ask you not to call yourself this. Call yourself a breastfeeding supporter or helper or whatever - but not a counsellor.

You must feel as if people are deliberately being critical, and I am sure you are a well-intentioned person, but if you make statements about bf, and about other training courses, and other stuff, which are not correct, then you have to expect comeback.

This is not squabbling or bickering (as someone suggested!). This is a talk board and we are talking

Twinklemegan · 03/01/2007 00:08

I've just been reading through this thread and wanted to add my two pence worth to the foremilk/hindmilk thing. I started breastfeeding under the belief that the hindmilk was this amazing pot of nectar at the end of the meal, and that I needed to make sure the breast was empty after a feed or it could affect my supply. When I read up on the subject more (which I DID DO Tiktok lol) I realised this was wrong on both counts, but I had already experienced a lot of anxiety because of my initial misunderstanding. DS came off the breast and I could still express the creamy hindmilk, so I thought...
a) he doesn't like the hindmilk for some reason (obviously he was full!) and
b) better express the rest but I'm too tired, OMG what about my supply.

The hot tap analogy is much more helpful and I wish I'd known it in the beginning.

maisym · 03/01/2007 00:09

If you say you're a bf counsellor then are you more responsible for your replies here? There's no legal type disclaimer on this topic.

IlanaK · 03/01/2007 08:09

That is a very interesting question maisy. I can speak for the ABM and say that our counsellors are covered by our insurance for any counselling that they do. This is another area of concern with people that call themselves bf counsellors, but are not affiliated with any organisation. Certainlly, for instance, our trainees and mother supporters (equivilant to peer supporters in other organisations) are not qualified to counsel mothers (only to offer support - a very clear difference) and would not therefore be covered by insurance if they came onto a talk board and dispensed counselling information under the ABM name.

tiktok · 03/01/2007 09:13

Ilana, somewhere downthread I have expressed similar concerns about 'freelancers' offering breastfeeding support as a job (which is what daisymlaisy does).

I would hope that if she has kept up her nursery nursing registration, she will probably be covered by the professional organisation's insurance, and it may well extend to covering her for breastfeeding stuff....in the same way that you are insured by ABM and I am insured by NCT. So if any ABM or NCT (or other vol.org) counsellor told someone something completely unsafe, or the mother interpreted it unsafely, we are protected and the mother is protected, and I expect daisymlaisy's set-up is similar, and that she will come on here and confirm that. Or maybe she has separate professional indemnity insurance (she'd be mad not to have something!).

The issue of quality control is something else. All the vol.orgs have a supervision system and ways of monitoring the work of their counsellors
post-qualification - the only way this would not be necessary is if we were all perfect 100 per cent of the time, and we are not

daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 09:17

Place- I have just copy and pasted what you said so I can reply
The UNICEF course whilst excellent 'grounding' - that is what it is - a basic course on which to built other skills that I wish ALL breastfeeding 'professionals' undertook. (BTW I also teach HP's and Midwives a breastfeeding course based on the unicef one). The unicef course does not IMHO teach any counselling skills - it shows here. It also does not do more than teach the basics - it does not go into much detail about breast refusal, weaning, drug transmission into breast milk, feeding multiples, or babies with special problems such as cleft palate, tongue tie, relactation etc.etc. which IS something that the voluntary organisations cover in their training.

What you are all missing is that your not taking into account my prior qualifications and experiance.

I am a rgn nurse, which over the 3 years training we undertake quite intensive counselling training as you can imagine, I then went onto train another 3 years to become a neonatal nurse, where all of the above was covered in huge details, again we did extensive counselling training as you can imagine. I was then funded to to the fantastic unicef course to extend my knowledge. So I'm not going to fight my corner against all of you, who put me down for saying things without getting my full facts right, When you know absolutely nothing about me and my experiances and capabilities at being a breastfeeding counsellors.

Tik Tok I do not agree with all your breastfeeding information and I strongly suggest you read up on your facts. |The NCT is no where near the only way forward and certainly does not make you more qualified than myself in counselling.

I think its quite insulting and shameful, the way you have all dealt with this and intergated me, I have as much right to be on here as yourselves and would never dream of questioning your abilities, just because our information differs ever so slightly.

It is so unwelcoming and you have left me feeling very annoyed and hurt. Surely thats not right?

OP posts:
daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 09:20

interrogated (sorry)

OP posts:
tiktok · 03/01/2007 09:20

Twinklemegan, you are a good example of the way hindmilk and foremilk misunderstanding leads to unhappy and sometimes ineffective breastfeeding - the way you describe what you were thinking is a really clear illustration of what goes on in mothers' heads!

Twiglett · 03/01/2007 09:20

haven't followed this debate

have read the OP and a few posts and the last post

Daisy .. you need to understand that Tiktok has built up respect over years here

how on earth do you think you can come on here, take on a well-respected and ever-helpful and always diplomatic member in an antagonistic manner and get anyone on your side?

It just won't happen .. its like walking into a pub, approaching a group of friends and shouting at one of the more popular members

I'm sure you're extremely qualified .. but you need to understand the nature of the internet forum

jingsman · 03/01/2007 09:22

I have to say as much as I do not totally agree with the advice Daisy was giving out this thread has really left a bad taste in my mouth. It has turned into 184 post of MN ganging up on a member who maybe misguided has posted with the best of intentions.
I do not think now that anything Daisy says will be listened too even if she comments on the weather outside her house. And while I know tiktok is a well respected member who does give out great advice in this instance (sorry tiktok) you have come across as hey this is my board no stepping on my toes. At times you are and have been on this thread rather patronising and like I said although I do not fully agree with Daisys wording I do feel sorry for the dreadful attack she has been under here. Come on 184 posts when the poor woman was only trying to clear up the situation betweem her and tiktok.

daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 09:24

so its ok for everyone including tik tok to do it to me, cause I'm not a longstanding poster and not respected. ? thats what your saying

Thats like walking into a pub, and everyone falling silent and not accepting

OP posts:
daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 09:26

thank you jingsman, you have actually made me cry! which makes me realize this has really been not a very nice experiance, and I wish I had never come on here.

OP posts:
daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 09:28

and I'm not looking for the symapathy vote. I'm going to go now and hope this thread will close behind me.

OP posts:
tiktok · 03/01/2007 09:38

daisym, I am sorry you feel hurt, and I believe you when you express frustration and annoyance.

You say you would never dream of questioning others' abilities - but you have suggested I read up on the facts It is fine to question my abilities or anyone else's - don't feel embarrassed to do so! This is what happens on a talkboard! I don't mind a bit - question away

However, everyone needs to take care when they are offering facts and information with a particular hat on - as you are doing.

On the evidence you show here, you haven't yet learnt enough about how breastfeeding works to compare with any NCT breastfeeding counsellor - you know a lot, I am sure, but not enough. In addition, expressing yourself well is part of being a breastfeeding counsellor, and though you may be great face to face, it is harder to see this in your writing....that wouldn't matter a bit, if you were not purporting to offer 'advice' to women as a 'professional breastfeeding counsellor', which you have done on several occasions. If you are gonna do this, then you have to be able to put it across accurately in writing. You have tendency to say things which are not quite true, probably sometimes in the heat of the moment (like you said you worled 'for' Unicef, and you got the ABM training wrong).

None of this is what I would want a breastfeeding counsellor to do. Please.....just stop calling yourself a 'breastfeeding counsellor', then I and IlanaK and others won't feel you are somehow claiming to have the same background as we do!

NotQuiteCockney · 03/01/2007 09:43

Hmmm, yes, people have ganged up on daisy. But given she came on here saying she was a BFC working for Unicef (later, it turned out she took a course with them, which is hardly the same thing). Whenever anyone has said anything she disagrees with, she has just dug her heels in, rather than asking for evidence, or being open to the possibility that she may not be right.

We have some local independent "BFC"s in our area, and I never hear good things about them. Never mind that the whole idea of someone saying "yes, I can sort out your breastfeeding problem, just bung me £X first" leaves a rather nasty taste in the mouth.

daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 09:45

yet again Tik Tok its all about whose best! Its pathetic it really is, I am as qualified you in total of my nursing qualifications I have 6 years worth of counselling training.
I do work for UNICEF I am a much respected volunteer worker for them .

Can you just leave me be now, and accept we are both on the same side and as good as one another , maybe I'm better than you with dealing with actual people as I have had to deal with some awful situations as a nurse, and you are better than me as an online counseller.

OP posts:
daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 09:47

I keep trying to go but you keep knocking me, so I have to defend myself so can we please drop it.

OP posts:
NotQuiteCockney · 03/01/2007 09:48

Yes, daisy, every time tiktok meets up with another breastfeeding counsellor, she must duel with them, to the death. Did you see her and IlanaK fighting further down in the thread? And Place came in here, new, with lots of credentials, from another breastfeeding organisation, so they have to put their dukes up, and fight it out.

The aggression, and need to prove who is best is coming only from you.

tiktok · 03/01/2007 09:50

jings, I would be mortified if I thought you were right - that I come across as patronising and claiming this is 'my board' and that my toes are being trodden on.....I try not to sound patronising ('cos I don't feel it!), and the idea that I am somehow territorial about the board is just daft, sorry! I am not responsible for all these posts, some of which, in any case, are simple exchanges of info, some are happy banter, and some are totally neutral.

I genuinely feel sorry for daisy, because she means well, she certainly wants to help mothers and she has taken steps to train in breastfeeding.

This is the second long-ish debate I have been involved in where someone has donned a professional hat and given out breastfeeding advice - the last one was with someone called NannyJo, if I remember rightly, about 2 years ago. If someone wants to do this, then they have to get their facts straight, otherwise it is not fair to mothers. And if someone calls themselves a breastfeeding counsellor, which I am and they are not, I have to challenge it! All daisym ever needed to do was to say 'sorry - you're right, I am not a breastfeeding counsellor. Anything I say on these boards about breastfeeding is from my experience as a nurse, a mother and my Unicef course'....and no one would bat an eyelid

daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 09:51

not quite cockney,if you read all through the thread, you will see I have not dug my heels in at all, and I have apologised where I was wrong and accepted other peoples opinions, its comments like yours, which are hurtful , that is what you want to believe as no-one has given me a chance.

Alot of other posters on here are guilty of the above, not just me.

OP posts:
daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 09:54

I genuinely feel sorry for daisy, because she means well, she certainly wants to help mothers and she has taken steps to train in breastfeeding - this is patronising,

I'm not going to say it again I am as qualified as you to be a breastfeeding cousellor so i will not apologise.

OP posts:
Daisymoo · 03/01/2007 09:59

So are all nurses and midwives who have taken the Unicef 3-day course qualified enough to style themselves breastfeeding counsellors?