Calling those who have stopped or been tempted to stop b/f before they wanted to...

[twinklemegan]

I have recently posted about this on another thread but I am now curious... has anyone out there given up/been tempted to give up breastfeeding because of the unrealistic way it is sometimes promoted?
eg b/f should be pain free and enjoyable;
any formula (even if desperate) inevitably leading to the end of b/f;
MWs not being allowed to recommend nipple shields even if woman is in excrutiating pain and scared of feeding;
assumptions that every woman has the support to be able to feed baby 24/7 if needed...
you get the idea.
Is it time to inject a bit of reality into the b/f literature and would this help some women to continue with at least some b/f??
Discuss!
PS I'm quite new on MN and I don't want to offend anyone - please be gentle with me!!

Good question. I would have liked to have more information in the forms of maybe case histories of women who had problems latching on and why - that different nipple shapes and different baby mouths can affect the ability to latch, and why epidurals may have some effect (I know this is brand new news!) - possible explanations, like the baby may be more likely to be underweight, or the anaesthetic itself affects the baby's alertness. I'd like to have known that latch problems aren't just because the mother isn't holding the baby properly, and aren't as rare (the threads here have been sanity-savers, finding out that I wasn't alone was the most amazing thing when I was at my most depressed). I'd have wished for the hospital to have a breastfeeding consultant who came to check on me, rather than a rotation of midwives who told me 'she may scream, but you have to do things they don't like sometimes', which made me feel weak, and some more information than 'it's hospital policy not to supplement for the first 24 hours', and then just leaving me with my baby when I had no idea how to 'make' colostrum (and had been given no information on how to express by the midwives when I was in the hospital, they pressed my breasts in a way I know now doesn't make milk come out). But really, this all boils down to being helped straight away - I know the NHS can't always support that - and the breastfeeding leaflets not just talking about the ways to breastfeed, but explaining the problems, because when you run into the problems, you do just feel utterly perplexed and stupid and in the wrong. In my own personal experience, and I'm very very happy to believe it's very rare, I didn't find any of these resources for about 2 weeks.

Also, I bet loads of people here can point to examples of how they had all that support and information. And maybe I should have done my own research more, but that's also sort of the point - I didn't think I'd have to research it more because I assumed bfing would be a choice, not a technique, and that it would be something me and my baby would just... do.

I remember seeing this thread when I was in the very early, very painful & frustrating days of bf'ding ds (well, we're still very early days but thankfully not quite so painful ). I think now I've had a few weeks experience I feel (slightly ) more qualified to add my tuppence.

My limited experience is that most of the people I know who breastfed or are breastfeeding their babies had made that decision while they were pregnant and were largely influenced by the health/bonding benefits. A fairly large proportion of those people gave up after a really short time because of problems. I seriously believe that they would have been more likely to continue if they had known about the potential problems in advance.

The literature needs to list the common issues I read about on here - sleepy baby, baby feeding all the time, latch problems, flat nipples, baby never seeming satisfied - and assure women that these things are normal, even to be expected and tell them how to get help, make things easier for themselves.

I've not met one single person who hasn't had a nightmare breastfeeding story to tell since I had my son (thankfully, most of them encouraging as many of them are about how they got over the nightmare early days and enjoyed breastfeeding ). Noone was telling me these stories when I was pregnant, presumably because they though I might be put off.

I think what I want to say (oh so very tired and incoherent...) is that yes, it's important that women who are undecided or have negative feelings about breastfeeding are not put off/scared off by worst-case scenarios in the literature, but at the moment I believe that some very pro-bf'ding women are stopping feeding earlier than they would like because they had unrealistic expectations that it would be natural and that any problems they had could be easily and quickly resolved.

Of course, this would not be so important if there was more access to high-quality one to one professional breast feeding support in the early days. But that's a pipe dream at the moment.

I sincerely believe that if I had seen a bf'ding counsellor in the first few days after my son's birth I wouldn't have had the last month and a half of agony while I tried to get a week of damage to heal. I still wince at the throw away comment of one of the first midwives who saw me try to feed him - "oh, you've got flat nipples, you're going to have problems with attachment". That's all, no advice, no referral to the hospital's excellent bf'ding support service who eventually picked up the pieces thanks to my community midwife's referral after we got home.

So, either:

1. Literature emphasises that there are common problems, you are not alone, and if you have a problem you need to get help - this does not make you a failure.(and give the requisite numbers)

1. Breastfeeding counsellors on the wards! It's so obvious!!!

People who have had poor bf support from midwives and others need to write to the authorities and tell them - this really does help things change. If you have had good support, too, then that could make a letter, too.

We will never have breastfeeding counsellors on the wards in every maternity unit - see a thread a while ago where I explained the maths of the woman power on this!

Midwives trained and supervised properly is the way to go.

As for literature and leaflets, there is plenty of it - both the 'why breastfeed?' and the 'what to do if you have problems' stuff. It does not get to the right people at the right time, maybe - as in macneil's experience. But we do not need more leaflets, though, believe me!

To answer Hunker's question, I think that the basic introductory literature (by which I mean leaflets such as those by the NHS and NCT) needs to emphasise much more strongly that, however easy breastfeeding might be in the long run, for many (most?) women it is very far from easy in the beginning. Otherwise, it may be very difficult for a woman to accept that she needs expert help. Also, it would be helpful to explain that by no means all the early problems can be put down to "poor positioning" (tongue-tie, excessively sleepy/jaundiced baby, size/shape of breasts). It needs to be clarified that, whilst in the long run breastfeeding shouldn't hurt, the majority of women have at least some pain in the beginning (because the letdown can be extremely painful) and that this is normal. This could save many women from nipple damage caused by constant releasing and re-attaching when there is actually nothing wrong with the latch. I know that all this information is out there, but I am talking about the basic literature and information given at antenatal classes.

The literature that I did receive at my antenatal class and in hospital was simplistic to the point of being patronising. I'm sorry, but the argument that there is information out there, just go and find it, is not that helpful to the average new mother attempting to breastfeed in the face of severe early difficulties. Perhaps the leaflets could give some references to more detailed information so that women knew where to start. Finding trustworthy information amidst the sea of so-called information out there can be very difficult. Searching on the internet, for instance, one finds hundreds of different sites on breastfeeding. One presumes that the sites of the various organisations can be trusted, but there are many others which are more dubious. For example, I understand now that the kellymom site is popular and apparently reliable, but at the time I hadn't heard of it and had no idea if the information on there had any merit.

I appreciate that you and I are never going to agree on this one Tiktok. I defer to your far more detailed knowledge of the breastfeeding literature and I accept that I may not have seen the more useful information at the right time. Please understand that I am not questioning the quality of information/advice that is available to women once they know where to look (and have the energy and inclination to do so).

BTW I completely agree that there need to be properly trained midwives available to help with establishing breastfeeding, but in the face of the current shortages I think this is some way off.

I totally agree with this. I expected to find bf easy because of all the well-meaning literature saying "it's natural" and then I was really surprised to find we both found it hard for at least the first six weeks. I would have appreciated some realism in the literature acknowledging that it can be hard - some babies don't take to it that easily and nor do some mums.

For the first three weeks both of us were in tears most days while we struggled with it and all the midwives could say was "oh you can do it - it's natural" which was no sodding help and just made me feel more of a failure. My girl was premature and jaundiced and losing weight fast so it all felt very fraught and I didn't find the midwives or HVs in the least bit helpful.

I ended up spending several hundred pounds on a breastfeeding consultant who helped enormously and who gave us practical help on how to get the latch etc and who advised various teas to boost milk production rather than just pontificating on how much better for the baby it is.

I actually agree with the original poster - all the literature is so positive it actually makes it harder for those of us who are struggling to get there. We got it sorted in the end but no thanks to the health professionals or to be honest the breastfeeding lobby. I would definitely have appreciated more realism - if I'd known it could take six weeks I wouldn't have panicked so much.

Oh and a tip to anyone advising on bf - enough with the "you can do it, it's natural" line. You wouldn't use it on an infertile couple trying to conceive - just because it's natural, doesn't mean it's easy. I wanted practical help not platitudes. Rant over. :}

A breastfeeding councillor dedicated to the neo-natal unit would have made a massive difference to me instead I had 16 days of upset and argument with the neonatal nurses followed by more upset and argument when we got home. Was called a mean mummy by the neo-natal nurse who was their "breast feeding specialist" because I wasn't putting the baby to the breast, I had begged them to let me but they wouldn't so not my fault, and ended up in tears after most visits, like having a baby on the neo natal unit isn't hard enough. I also felt that other successful breast feeders in real life were unhelpfully unkind or self righteous when I needed support, the fights that occur on mumsnet over breastfeeding made me feel (at the time as I was pretty fragile) that I did not want to seek support here even though I know that mumsnet offers excellent bf support and I could have really used the advice. If it hadn't been for one excellent midwife, and support from my best friend who is a midwife in the same hospital I would have given up entirely even though I really wanted to breast feed. Now I am an almost full time pumper with one or two breast feeds a day (more if its a good day). I am depressed by this and feel a total failure and feel that others see me as such. Once we got home the neo-natal home care nurse came twice a week and each visit was a lecutre in why I should formula feed and how it would be better for both of us - further loss of confidence. Frankly breast feeding support in the NHS where I live is crap support depends on being lucky enough to have the right health professional working the right shift on the right unit in order to get good advice. They do not all sing from the same song sheet and some have their own agendas particularly, I have found, if their own bf experience was not good, many do not follow the training they were given, the good mw showed me the trusts bf training video and told me that if anyone told me to change what I was doing I should tell them that I had seen this video so that they would stop giving me crap advice. Appologise for the rant but as you may be able to tell I've been stewing over this for some time. Sorry

wow bewilderbeest

can't believe anyone would see you as a failure - seems to me like you've achieved loads against all the odds - you sound amazing

shonaspurtle - totally agree with you - it's what I wanted to put across in my post of 3 Nov on this thread but you have explained it so much more clearly

bewilderbeast - congratulations on all you've achieved against the odds. Well done for perservering and seeking out the help you needed. Not sure if I would have the courage to keep going.

I was very lucky in that noone ever suggested that I stop trying to get the breastfeeding right. It helped me just concentrate on getting through each day. It must be even harder to keep going when (usually well meaning) people are suggesting you give up.

(Not a criticism of those who do choose to switch to formula - We're still taking it a week at a time but that's better than a feed at a time as it was in the early days!)

Bewilderbeast - please don't feel like a failure. I read posts on here from women who are pumping almost full time and I am in awe. I found it such hard work that I just couldn't keep it up and I gave in.

I just wanted to clear something up having read through the early part of this thread again. I recently posted "Please understand that I am not questioning the quality of information/advice that is available to women once they know where to look (and have the energy and inclination to do so)." Oops - looking at my OP I seem to have changed my tune somewhat, as at the time I seemed to be doing exactly that! This was partly because I wanted to be slightly controversial for the thread to get attention (guess that worked), but also because I was still feeling pretty bitter about the whole experience. A couple of months on, I have experienced some happy b/f and have now taken the decision myself to stop as I'm going back to work, so I feel I've got things more in perspective. Sorry to ramble, but just wanted to clarify my thinking in case anyone thinks I'm a hypocrite!

bewilder, what a story......when you feel a bit better, maybe, would you feel able to write to your PCT and tell them your experiences, good and bad?

You have done brilliantly. In time you will feel proud of yourself and some of the bad memories will be held up as proof of your fortitude and tenacity

bewilder - I know what you mean about how it can be pot luck with the NHS. I gave birth in a birth centre. Unfortunatley I ended up with the mw from hell ! She made sarcastic remarks every time I asked for more gas and air , like "don't be such a wimp or something" ! Even DH who was present (and more sane at the time than me!) noticed how nasty she was.

I didn't complain, because I put it down to that particular individual having a bad day (we all have bad days). If it were not for the fact that (very lucky for me) the second midwife who arrived (the nasty one had to go off in the middle of my labour) I may have ended up with a c-section or who knows what else.

The 2nd midwife was so kind and experienced that I gave birth (naturally) within 50 mins. of her arrival. I sent DH back there a few weeks later with a huge bunch of flowers for her and chocs. and biscuits for the entire unit. I think they deserve all the support they can get at these birth centres, so of course I didn't complain. So many are now being closed down. I may have complained if it had been my local hospital.

As for bf, again it was pot luck. One midwife who came to visit was a real hippy and said she had travelled the world with her newborn bf baby and gave very useful advice. She had real life experience of bf, had a positive attitude to babies (it's amazing how many mw's/hv's I have come across who don't actually seem to like children much - very strange if you ask me as babies are the main focus of their work !!) and she had a kind nature - these are rare qualities in health profs.

Yes, I agree that you should complain about your experience in the NHS. Even if you receive no apology and nothing is done about it, at least you will have addressed the matter for your own sense of peace

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Pitchounette, you are right about there being no substitute in those crucial early days for skilled, knowledgable personal support - for most mothers this will come (or should come) from midwives and not the internet. This sort of support could take the place of any amount of leaflets.

Could everyone have the services of a breastfeeding counsellor - no There are not enough of us!

All the volunteer breastfeeding organisations are working to capacity as it is. If even a tenth of the 450,000 mothers who start to breastfeed every year contacted a bfc in the first week for personal, face to face help, we would be totally overwhelmed.

Peer supporters are more numerous, but they are not trained to help with difficult first week latching problems, and they too are volunteers.

I don't recognise the description of the info in NCT leaflets:

"It shoudn't hurt. If it does, then you are not doing things properly ie you don't know how to feed your baby

• Babies don't need a feed as such for one or 2 days. Anyway not until the milk comes in. There is very little amount of colustrum so don't worry if they are not feeding.
• It's 'natural' so I suppose you will be able to do that wo any problem. "

I don't think we would ever say 'you are not doing things properly' - all our info about positioning and attachment and avoiding pain is written sensitively and informatively, as we recognise that it's essential not to pile any blame on the mum. Where do we say 'don't worry if they are not feeding'? Babies don't usually need large volumes of milk in the first couple of days, but we would not tell anyone not to worry if the baby was not feeding at all - if there's an old leaflet out there saying something different, then let me know! Breastfeeding is 'natural' but I seem to remember that any time we use this phrase we explain that it does not always 'come naturally' and if we thought everyone could do it without a problem, we would be rather negating our existence

I agree leaflets have to be written carefully, but I honestly think the idea that breastfeeding should be easy for everyone and you are rubbish if it isn't comes from inside the mother - unless you can show me something different.

twinkle - I haven't tead the whole thread by the way - but just re-read your original post. I don't think that the info. you refer to that is handed out to mums is deliberatley trying to be optimistic in order to hide the horrid facts. The aim is, I think, to provide support and encouragement.

I agree that it's a bit daft to claim that there will be NO problems when trying to bf. The reality is (as I myself found out when my son did not latch for days after birth having been told that it was as easy as pie and all babies latch the minute they are born !!) that there may be a multitude of problems: no latch, bad latch resulting in cracked, bleeding nipples, mastitis, thrush, etc. I went through several of these in the first few months of bf.

The problem we have in this country is that as bf is not the norm and because most of us do not know anyone who has bf for an extended period of time (my own sister only bf for a few months and my mother is elderly and can't rememebr a thing about bf, I don't have any other close female family nearby) we don't get that active, encouraging, motherly, kind and caring sort of support that one can usually get from close family and friends.

Personally I didn't find the clinical, mechanical bf support (with the use of a plastic baby !) very useful when I was pregnant. I needed something much more REAL and lovey dovey, which I eventually was lucky to receive from a family friend of DH.
This was what helped me with bf.

In countries where bf is the norm (I have lived in and visited several) what their health service says or doesn't say, is not nearly as important because mothers are actively supported by close family and friends.

I think this is what we need to work on in this country. We need to have a better network of bf mothers who are willing to support, because our health service just isn't up to it.

The surveys that have been done on this (I posted one on another thread) seem to support this argument. Mothers who have easy access and support to other bf mums, have a much better chance of bf successfully for a longer period of time. If a bf mum doesn't know something, she will at least know someone who does (a good mw, a good bf councillor, a good website, a good bf charity, a good breast pump, etc !!)

As far as setting the right "tone" when giving support re. bf, this is very problematic. Unless you are a thoroughly experienecd councillor with the right personality, it can become almost impossible to always set the right tone.

Bf can be such an emotional issue that anything anyone says can trigger off all kinds of emotions. I say this as someone who is passionate about bf but has been at the receiving end of several angry posters who protested that I was being too optimistic about bf ! It is a tough task talking about bf and just looking at the no. of threads on this website that have ended in angry words, one can safely say that it really isn't easy setting the right tone.

Yellowrose - yes I agree with everything you've said. I think I might have been one of the angry posters you refer to btw - it was my first post on Mumsnet don't you know, and you didn't half squash me!! You mention that your baby couldn't latch initially. I was thinking about this today and I think that one of the most misleading things for me was the implication (probably inferred by myself rather than actually what was written) that the baby would just "know" what to do. Whereas DS was clearly as clueless as I was, plus he had loads of mucus and couldn't suck properly for days. Not a good start!

I've made some suggestions as to how I personally think the entry level leaflets could be improved, but I agree with you, Tiktok, Hunker and others that it's a complete minefield with no obvious solution. Perhaps someone much better with words than me would be able to formulate something that can put over that
women musn't be disillusioned if they find b/f very difficult to start with;
that it probably isn't just because they're doing something wrong;
that many women have these difficulties (but not all so as not to put women off!);
that they musn't be ashamed of asking for help because women have always need help, but they used to get it from relatives.

But much more pithy and succinct.

I have no recollection of who it was that got angry, it was several months back. I have no idea why you felt "squashed" twinkle, I don't use this website to squash people. As I said in my last post, bf is an emotional issue, and it triggers some very big feelings in some posters.

If some posters don't like some or ANY of what I say or suggest, I am liberal enough and liberated enough to take it on the chin

I think I may have said at the time that such angry reactions were unexpected and not intended, so I hope you accept my honesty if nothing else twinkle !

In fact I was also quiet new to MN at the time, and have learned a thing or two since : )

I was just being lighthearted Yellowrose - didn't mean to sound accusing! (We did make up btw!) Like I said, I agree with everything you said in your last post.

Oh good twinkle, I have learned to be more careful with my words on this website. The problem is that things can come across much more harshly in a post than actually intended, so I have learned a lot of things from MN

Good night, and what a very interesting thread twinkle, hope to meet again soon

I think BF promoters should put more emphasis on how hard it can be at the start and much, much, much more emphasis on stratagies to establish BF if you've got a baby that wont latch on. I only managed it because I wasvery luckily 'rescued' by a very good midwife. It actually took for my baby to become very dehydrated before she stepped in and took over from the various other members of staff, so called 'hospital breast feeding support people' and wrote down a stratagy to A) Get my poor DS some fluids, B)Sort my supply out c) Teach my DS how to feed and me how to feed him without causing us further trauma. She wrote everything down and that gave me something to hold onto in my foggy, stressed state.

There was nothing like the advice she gave me in the leaflets/booklets - and there SHOULD have been IMO!

tiger - I had the same problem with DS not latching for several days after birth. He was born in the summer of 2004, during a heat wave, so when I think back now he could so easily have ended up dehydrated.

All I was told by the helplines was to keep checking his fontanelle to make sure it had not sunk too deeply (a sign of dehydration).
No one mentioned expressing and feeding him colostrum by spoon. I now realise this is what I should have done.

With hindsight, I think it may have been that he was born over 2 weeks early and I had a very long labour. DS was born with a huge cone shaped head. Certainly no one had ever told me that babies born a bit early with lots of pressure placed on their head during a long labour may have difficulties with latching.

I was lucky that a friend and one visting midwife helped me on day 4. Luckily my milk had come in by this point too, so DS just learned to latch for longer and longer and we eventually got bf going.

The midwife who helped you tiger, did she get you to express colostrum (which is what I should have done had I known about it) or did she supplement with formula ?

I am Just interested to know how baby's non-latch resulting in dehydration is normally dealt with in hospitals ?

yellow - it worries me when mothers are told they only need to watch for a sunken fontanelle.

It's a hard symptom to watch for. Truly sunken fontanelle is a very late sign of dehydration - babies at risk of dehydration show it sooner in other ways (lack of pooing, then lack of weeing, lethargy, very sleepy) and sometimes perfectly ok babies may have a sunken-looking fontanelle (though it's not really).

Any baby not latching in the first couple of days should be given some hand expressed colostrum (and routine care should involve not separatng mother and baby and keeping them in close physical contact at all times).

Thanks tiktok that is very useful to know. I wish I had known about hand expression. I feel sad even now that my baby got nothing at all in the first few days of life. I hope this info. will help other mums with newborns that don't latch quickly after birth.