Calling those who have stopped or been tempted to stop b/f before they wanted to...

[twinklemegan]

I have recently posted about this on another thread but I am now curious... has anyone out there given up/been tempted to give up breastfeeding because of the unrealistic way it is sometimes promoted?
eg b/f should be pain free and enjoyable;
any formula (even if desperate) inevitably leading to the end of b/f;
MWs not being allowed to recommend nipple shields even if woman is in excrutiating pain and scared of feeding;
assumptions that every woman has the support to be able to feed baby 24/7 if needed...
you get the idea.
Is it time to inject a bit of reality into the b/f literature and would this help some women to continue with at least some b/f??
Discuss!
PS I'm quite new on MN and I don't want to offend anyone - please be gentle with me!!

I had my first baby in the 70's and bf advice was to feed for two minutes each side every four hours, working up to about 10 mins. Needless to say, I ended up formula feeding ds totally by the time he was three weeks of age.

With ds2, four years later, I was determined to bf and in the meantime the Stanway's excellent book about bfeeding had been published. I smuggled the book into hospital with me and did evasive things like pouring water onto ds's bib to confound the test weighing. I managed to establish bfing with just dh and the book for support and then went on to feed my next two babies as well. It wasn't an easy road but I felt a great sense of achievement that I'd managed to feed my babies the way I wanted.

wow suedonim - so impressed with your determination - but so that you had to hide what you were doing in order to bf your babies.

JANINEMCG - can I ask if your baby's reflux went away once you used formula? I only ask because my ds had reflux too - an hv told me that breastmilk is thin so comes back up more easily - but when I started to ff, ds's reflux improved for only a couple of days or so and then came back worse than before.

Sue,how sad for you that you felt obligedto wet your baby's bib.
That is so poignant.

twinkle, sorry, no time to read full thread but i have to say on reading your op that i was furious with everyone who'd written the leaflets and books i'd read before birth. i had read loads and loads and was so shocked when it hurt like hell and didn't get better in a couple of days and no-one could tell me what i was doing wrong. if only i'd had mumsnet, i'd have known some pain was normal. as it was i stuck with it (finally saw bf counsellor plus determined not to give up!) and am still bf dd who is now 12 months. but ooooh, if i'd met some of those authors in the early days....

Janine,I'm not entirely convinced that the b/feeding problems were because the baby 'didn't like the taste' of you milk......

i agree with so many points onhere:
yes, feeling guilty is awful, but it comes from within and you know what? if we had MORE and BETTER and more rounded information, both printed and in the form of human support, we'd be doing a damn sight better than we are.

i had 3 babies in 3 years and was amazed at how different my experiences were between establishing bf with one another of my 3. i had HORRIBLE trouble with the first one and was seriously tempted to give up but was soooooooo determined (and i beleive, lucky that it got better) that i stuck it out till solids at abput 6 months.

number 2 was a total breeze. he was on the breast within about 30 seconds of birth and stayed there for about an hour! my womb contracted so fast it was like the texas massacre in that room and full milk was in before i could stop fro breath. THAT is how i had imagined it would be all along... but, as it was no2 i just thought; oh, ive cracked it!

but no3 proved me wrong. he was apparently latching right (was checked about a gazillion times!) but still the agony... and thank heavens for my wonderful MW Jackie Hayes who identified a TONGUE-TIE and saw to it that he was treated (a painless and immediate cure!!) and LO, all was well again. i now believe this was the prob the forst time.

WHY OH WHY HAD I NOT HEARD OF THIS BEFORE???

MORE information please!!

Its regional too - how it is treated, recognised. am vvvv lucky where i live now that it they do both around these parts.

so many of the accounts on here make me think of tongue-tie and nobody seems to know/talk/ask about it.

the literature, the positive literature, is fantastic. but we need more.

Nappie,where are you with such exemplary support?

Hi twinklemegan, sorry not got time to read whole thread, but in answer to your OP:

Yes, tempted to give up, both times. Stuck it out first time, insisted on getting help far too late and finally stopped finding it a problem after say 4 or 5 months. Second time around, got a bf counsellor round to my house before the baby was even born, I was so scared of it all going wrong, had her round again day after dd was born, called a m/w out to my house the following night (a Saturday), went to the bf counsellor's drop-in that Monday.

In brief, asserted myself. Beats me why GPs and m/w's don't routinely hand out the phone number where you can ring and make an appt with the nearest bf counsellor. I needed to be seen, not talked to over the phone.

Second time was still a huge problem, BUT the problem only lasted a few weeks this time.

weaselmum - yes ds reflux dissappeared the minute he was on the bottle. The doctor told me to stop giving him the gaviscon immediately. He wolfed his first bottle down like a dream and I felt all the anxiety and sheer desperation of the previous 4 weeks melt away.

I'll never know why he didn't want to feed and have spent many an hour wondering why as he latched on brilliantly from the word go and was a very efficient feeder. My theories range from he was 'bored' looking at the same view every time to my fondness for strawberries over the summer... I'll never know.

He just started on his baby rice this morning and loves it! onwards and upwards!

hi Moondog - im near southampton now. the birth centre in Hythe is where the tongue tie was fixed. have heard on here of other people who had a tongue tie problem identified and fixed and they were nearly all in this vicinity.

my mum is a mw in London and says that they identify it at her hosp but wont treat it as they say it fixes itself. (yes, after the poor desperate mother has given up trying in too many cases! ffs.)

i actually put in a complaint about our NCT breastfeeding class, and i know that others who were there did the same. the woman was lovely, but just kept repeating that it might hurt but if we stuck at it we'd be okay. this was for about five minutes of the class, the rest of which was taken up with telling the husbands how good bfing would be for their children.
to be honest it was a waste of time, the husbands didn't need persuading, they were way beyond that point, we all just needed more concrete information about what would happen to us. there was no mention of babymoons or what to do if your baby slept loads and didn't wshow much interest in feeding.
i know that's just one class, but i do wish that she had been a bit more medical and less optimistic. if she'd said about pcos or beta-blockers or clomid i don't think that would have put us off, in fact i think it would have made me should longer and earlier for support.

of the six of is in the class, one gave up at 4 weeks, two of us mix-fed for 5 months and the other three were fine with bfing, apart from the exhaustion. all of us agreed that the bfing class was utterly useless, so i do see what you are sayign twinklemegan, but i imagine that the classes would have to be tailored very differently to deal with the various demographics who might attend. which isn't really on, in a way...

nappies, it wasn't a nurse called alison who fixed it for you, was it?

I haven't read all the posts here but, wheta I found, was that no-one could give me any more advice than I could already find in the books and pamphlets - I phoned the NCT helpline and the woman only told me what I knew already when I was rather hoping she would come up with something new for me to try.

If I ever had a problem with it in the future, I would come straight to Mumsnet

Weaselmum/Moondog, even back then there were other women out to defeat the system. One of the other mums told me about the bib-wetting to make it look as though the baby was getting enough milk (it's a long time ago but Istr 2ozs was target for each feed). Nappy wetting was another ploy but an ounce of water is actually quite a lot of liquid when you're trying to disperse it on a tiny baby!

Weaselmum/Moondog, even back then there were other women out to defeat the system. One of the other mums told me about the bib-wetting to make it look as though the baby was getting enough milk (it's a long time ago but Istr 2ozs was target for each feed). Nappy wetting was another ploy but an ounce of water is actually quite a lot of liquid when you're trying to disperse it on a tiny baby!

ok a lot of you feel like you weren't GIVEN enough information, and found the LEAFLETS sinplified everything.

well i was extremely determined to breastfeed and i actually went out and got info myself, read lots of books, went on lots of websites..kellymom.com was a god send as was this forum.

it seems to me like people feel 'the system' has let them down.

sorry if that pisses people off but really there is SOOOOOO much info out there it's just a case of informing yourself, or not.

you're right, of course, dizzy, but the nct woman made it sound so natural and lovely (and also advised against reading certain books written by people who favour schedules etc) that the impression i had was that arming yourself with 'too much' information would possibly over-complicate matters. plus if i'm honest i didn't necessarily think i was going to have a real live baby after things that had happened in the past so a large part of me was reluctant to investigate disasters before they had a chance to happen in case of jinxing things. i do think that a breastfeeding class would have been a good forum to talk about potential problems other than getting a good latch.
nowadays i'd have mumsnet, but back then i relied on the leaflets i was given at the hospital, the docs and midwives there (none of whom put my medical conditions together with possible bfing problems) and that nct meeting. nothing's perfect, but i do see where twinkle is coming from .

i've read your posts aitch, about the awful time you had. and i see what you're saying about 'too much info.'

it just pees me off no end when people seem to want spoon feeding info and don't take any resposibility for their decisions. of course, many people rely on a gp for advice, not realising that gps get very very little breastfeeding training. it's like when people say'well my HV said..' it pees me off. but sooo many people don't seem to know any better.

do you know, though, i'm not sure my bfing experience was truly awful? in a way, i think it only becomes awful because it didn't work out. i mean, much as it was grim at the time if i had got through it i'm sure i would now be looking back at that time thinking 'glad i don't have to go through that again' whereas i look back at it and shiver with horror (and remember the feelings of failing to nourish my child which were truly awful).
so i think that's what accounts from the very different perspectives of ffers and bfers, we probably both had a shit time but one set got through it. i'm certainly very ...

Hi twinklemegan,
so sorry to hear that you are having a hard time with bf. havent read the whole thread, but if combined feeding works for you, then relax and go with it.
i agree that there is an assumption that bf should be pain free, and in the majority of cases it probably is - but not always and i know it feels like you are the only one experiencing pain at the time. i had a v bad start with bf, i have gbs and so was on iv antibitoics during labout, despite this son diagnosed with suspected meningitisand pumped full of antibiotics for weeks. took me nearly four weeks before i realised that the excrutiating pain i was having when bf was not normal, but that i had developed thrush, not just nipple but in the milk ducts too. but once i had a diagnosis (from my sister!), i found that there was a surprising amount of support available, both practical and psychological. i went to see our nct bf counsellor who was fab (maybe because she is also a gp), and also went to the local nhs drop in clinic, which was also very supportive. although it took a further 2 weeks to clear the thrush (will full on drugs, none of this gentian violet stuff) my ds is now 9 months and still bf quite happily. although i looked at many studies which confirm your assertion about formula changing gut flora, i think you have to tell yourself that every bf is a fantastic contribution to your ds.
it may not seem like it now, but i honestly can hardly feel my son on the breast now, sometimes i have to check if he is actually feeding. of course, in some ways it is a disadvantage to have no feeling in that area ;-) but on balance, after such a bad start it is probably a good thing. btw, does anyone know if the feeling comes back once you stop bf??

Nappies,I'm also lucky enough to be in a place where b/feeding support is fantastic (we have the goddess figure Sharon Breward in this vicinity-North West Wales Health Trust).

It didn't stop me having a very vile,painful and lonely time of it though but I battled through.

An MW here told me that in the 'olden days' MWs would keep the pinky finger nail long for the sole purpose of dealing with tongue tie on the spot-no messing about referring to other folk.

Hi Twinkle,
Have read through a lot of the posts and just wanted to add that what I think needs to be emphasised to Mums is that it is ultimately their choice about what they feel is best for them and their baby. Agree also that there is a mine of information out there and you just need to find it, but I read one book recently (my DS doesn't like disturbance when feeding, so I do a lot of reading while BFing), which said the author didn't know one new mum who had thought to read lots about actually being a Mum, i.e. beyond labour and childbirth, while pregnant and I so agree with this! I find that the books I've had since DS was born do outline the pros and cons of both BFing and FFing really well and provide a balanced argument as well as reassuring Mums that either option is okay - really what works best for a happy Mum and baby and they say that mix-feeding is okay too. I think more emphasis needs to be made that surely a happy Mum and baby is the best situation, so that some of the guilt can be taken away! 30-odd years ago the advice to feed 4-hourly led to my Mum having to FFeed me in the end. With my brother and sister she perservered with BFing, despite my brother having pyloric stenosis and my sister having dairy intolerance and ignored all MW and HV advice (lied to MW about giving cooled boiled water - she didn't), we've all turned out fine (I think )!

This is poignant to me, as I was 100% determined that I would BF solely to 6 months, held idealised view of what it would be like. At 8 weeks in I have found it absolutely knackering and was painful to start with. All came to a head yesterday when DS who has not been gaining weight well, lost weight. We have excellent support where I am with a BFing clinic Monday to Friday at hospital. MW and HV all extremely pro BFing. I have taken DS to BFing clinic where he latched on perfectly and fed perfectly with no spit up either (he has latched on well since day 1) - unlike at home, where he bobs on and off and possets lots. I have felt exhausted and I have felt huge guilt trips about maybe I'm not producing enough milk. In the end yesterday after walking back from HV in tears told my DH to get some formula on way home from work (n.b. exhaustion also from being up so much during night because DS constantly waking). Last night, DH fed him formula at 10.30pm when he woke and I expressed at same time. He then slept for four hours (longest he's slept in ages) up for half an hour for feed and nappy change, then back down and fed again at 6. I still feel guilty that I've given him one bottle of Formula, but I know that he and I were happier today because we had had more sleep. He has fed better today and tonight's bottle is all EBM - I get to sleep through 10.30/11pm feed and DH sleeps through 3am feed (if DS does same pattern tonight), so it works for all of us.

Sorry for long post, but I just wanted to say that I agree that there needs to be some more encouragement to say it's okay if you can't 100% BF and that way we might not put so much guilt on ourselves. Anyway, I should be in bed!

I know where you're coming from DizzyBint. Just wanted to make clear that I DID inform myself, in fact I am generally guilty of reading far too much about things (I know DH thinks that). No, I didn't do much research before the birth because I was much more concerned about giving birth to a healthy baby, which I was by no means confident about. And what I did read before the birth seemed to be very much focussed on the benefits of b/f rather than the potential pitfalls.

Also, speaking for myself, I was in a very vulnerable position at the time, as are many women I'm sure. I'd had a terrible birth and was absolutely exhausted - I think I probably had mild PND as well. When you're in that state of mind you tend to believe what you are told, but I received so much conflicting advice I didn't know if I was coming or going. So I was told "it shouldn't hurt so you're doing it wrong", then by another MW "of course it will hurt, you have to carry on through the pain". No wonder I ended up with cracked nipples! Of course in hindsight I know I received bad advice but I was in no state at that time to go off and do my own research. By the time I was feeling up to it I had already suffered cracked nipples, mastitis, probably thrush and was mixed feeding, and was still in dreadful pain.

I think my point was mainly a general one to suggest how more women could be encouraged to try and to perservere with b/f (and I do think I am perservering, even though DS is getting a lot of formula as well). The fact is that many women will not go off and do loads of their own research. They expect, and rightly so IMO, that the information provided by the NHS will be trustworthy and accurate.

And anyway, don't a majority of women start off b/f (75% I think?) but then give up? So doesn't this mean that the message about the benefits of b/f is getting through but that there is insufficient information about the initial problems that might be encountered? If no one has told you about the severity of the problems you might encounter in the first few weeks, of course you are going to feel like there's something wrong with you. And if you are anything like me, the fact that b/f is often promoted as being so easy and natural makes you even less inclined to seek help.

ScaredCatMum - was spending ages composing my post so didn't see yours until now. I'm really sorry to hear about the problems you've been having (sounds to me like it's the possetting that might be the problem rather than any problem with your supply - especially if you've expressed enough for a whole feed). It sounds like your solution is similar to the one I started with - BTW it was the continued pain that led to me introducing yet more formula, NOT giving the odd bottle at night, so try not to feel guilty. Completely agree that the best thing for baby is a happy mum. Best of luck with everything.

I think a number of obstacles conspire against bf:

• We do still have a culture where bf is thought of as something you 'only do for the first few weeks/months (if at all)' - or as something impossibly middle-class and complex.

• The success of the bottlefeeding culture has led to bf expertise (= knowledge about dealing with problems being readily available) being lost and formula often being viewed as a panacea to solve problems, despite all propagation of the benefits of bf.

• Misogyny (prudishness hand-in-hand with the sexualisation of breasts).

And bf promotion has a tricky time finding its way between encouragement of bf and information about problems that can arise - especially with so much very clever and powerful marketing being produced by the formula companies.

I don't actually think bf supporters/advocates condemn mixed feeding/'compromise' solutions. I do think, though, they can be wary of advising them because it really can be the beginning of a slippery slope.

FWIW I didn't seek out information on bf pre-birth partly because I assumed it would all be 'natural', but partly because after miscarrying my previous pg I wasn't entirely convinced I would end up with a real live baby at the end of it all (I adopted a similar approach to buying things for the baby, leading to dh having to do lots of mad dashes when ds arrived at 38 weeks).