Calling those who have stopped or been tempted to stop b/f before they wanted to...

[twinklemegan]

I have recently posted about this on another thread but I am now curious... has anyone out there given up/been tempted to give up breastfeeding because of the unrealistic way it is sometimes promoted?
eg b/f should be pain free and enjoyable;
any formula (even if desperate) inevitably leading to the end of b/f;
MWs not being allowed to recommend nipple shields even if woman is in excrutiating pain and scared of feeding;
assumptions that every woman has the support to be able to feed baby 24/7 if needed...
you get the idea.
Is it time to inject a bit of reality into the b/f literature and would this help some women to continue with at least some b/f??
Discuss!
PS I'm quite new on MN and I don't want to offend anyone - please be gentle with me!!

snap, foundintranslation... i think i was in complete denial. although dd actually came at 38 weeks so a lot of our rushing around was done post-birth (again not v babymoonish...)
very sorry to hear about your miscarriage, that sort of thing really knocks the stuffing out of you, doesn't it?
and i agree with everything you said, which is naice...

Hi Twinkle (nice to meet you on the July thread by the way). Any bm that you get into your baby will be doing him good . I agree that the 'positive' literature about bf is sometimes simplistic, but think this is because this kind of campaign often has to simplify the message to ensure it gets through.

I did NCT, and quite frankly didn't find the bf session particularly useful (diff person to the antenatal teacher, who was excellent). The bf councellor spent a lot of time with diagrams of babies mouths latching on, which felt a bit odd and academic. I also had a difficult time establishing bf. Had a complication free homebirth, but DS was bit too relaxed about feeding (latch was fine, but letdown was toecurling for first few weeks). Problem with demand feeding is what happens if your babe doesn't demand it. He got more jaundiced, and we were admitted to hospital when he was 6 days old, he spent 24 hours under lights with me constantly feeding and expressing so that the mws could top him up with EBM. We then had a further 2 nights in hospital. I kept demanding help and support (felt really bolshy, it was a huge and busy postnatal ward) and hardly slept for the first night as I felt so guilty about 'starving' my baby. For about a week after we came home we were setting alarms and encouraging him to feed etc.

DS is now 14 weeks, and bf is going well (most of the time), but it makes me sad that there is not enough RL support for women. The other things that kept me going was support from my mum, who bf 3 babies, and in the early days DH who did pretty much every other bit of babycare so that I could feed. I thought he was being a git at times as he kept bringing DS to me for feeding at what seem like indecently short intervals when I was psychotic from lack of sleep, but that was what it took to get feeding established.

Apologies for the long post, look forward to chatting to you more on the July 06 thread.

Oh, and totally agree with the denial about a real live baby to look after, I just couldn't equate my huge belly with my own child. Took about 6 weeks after the birth before i really took in that he was mine.

thanks aitch (love the new name btw)

There's a fundamental problem with diagrams as well. You don't see it from that angle when it's you doing the feeding! I am fairly well endowed and had to sometimes press down on my breast to check baby's latch, which inevitably resulted in him falling off or slipping on to my nipple - ouch! Not sure how else they could show you though, pre-baby, unless we all got our boobs out and practised with special dolls!

i was actually rather surprised that we didn't do that, though twinkle... am i mad? there was a point in our bf class when the men were sent out of the room on some task or other and i thought 'right here we go... hand me that baby annabell doll, now we'll get down to it'. so surprised that we didn't cover anything in a practical sense. the MWs kept saying that my nipples were a good shape for bfing, which was good, but i'd expected to cover that in the bfing nct class, you know, let the woman discreetely see your nipples and she could tell you a god position to try first. although maybe they wouldn't be able to tell at that stage...
anyway, i'd worn a nice bra and EVERYTHING, so was most disappointed not to get my norks out.

Actually, so was I!! But I was glad in the end cos the woman was really scary!

just found this thread languishing on my never looked at 'watch' list

just to concur with lots on here again, i still think the information and support, though available if you take a proacitve apprach, can still be patchy, to say the least.

during the first 7 days of trying to feed ds1 (a time i rmember referring to as 'hell on earth' and am now busy forgetting) i did seek more information. i got the mw's at the birth centre to show me, i had my mother - an experienced mw - stay with me, i called nct, i saw hv... but it was all the same info. they all said the same thing about my latch and with all due respect to each - i had heard what they were saying before! i wanted new information, the standard thing was obviously not working!

the exclamation marks were how i was feeling inside, but of course i politely said thanks and carried on trying in agony... the guilt and sense of failure, along with intense tiredness and overwhelming emotional whirlpool of new motherhood do make it a bit difficult to think rationally and fight your corner in a particularly proactive and sensible way.

in the end, after 7 days, it just worked. god knows how. im guessing his tongue tie just stretched enough or snapped by itself with all the hunger-screaming, who knows? i do know that the relief and the healing, was instant and soooooo sweet.

and ive lost the point of what i was trying to say... but hey, just wanted to share really.

oh - moondog, yes i heard that too about the fingernail trick. i wonder why they dont do that anymore? think i should become a midwife so i could be a good one and use all the tricks

Hi NappiesGalore - many thanks for your comments. The thread seems to have generated quite a lot of discussion and I've been really interested to hear others' points of view.

If anyone's still paying any attention to this thread (yawn!), just wanted to say that having read some of the recent threads on bf problems I feel utterly vindicated. I realise that we all have different opinions on this subject, but there are definitely women out there who would benefit from a little more honesty in some of the bf literature.

I've just had a look to see where I could've upset you, TM, after you mentioned it on another thread.

I think this must be the thread you mean, since I can't see any others.

I am sorry I upset you here, but I do stand by what I said about one bottle of formula having a negative impact on a breastfed baby. It's not something I can change or sugarcoat - it's just true.

So I guess if you're talking about honesty in breastfeeding literature, I would say that some breastmilk is better than none, but I would also talk about the effect giving formula has on a baby's gut.

i came close to quitting in the first few days with dd as i was bleeding so much she was throwing up my blood and she was very sucky and wanted constant feeding. if it hadn't been for my lovely public health nurse ordering me across the road to buy an dummy and lansinoh and to try breast shields if i still couldn't bear the pain i'm not sure i could have continued even if i'd wanted to.

it was a struggle with dd and i was planning (even looking forward to) giving up at 6 months but when i started to gradually introduce formula a)she wouldn't drink it and b) she turned out to be cows milk intolerant so i kept up bf and i'm so glad i did. i started to really enjoy it and was devastated when she self weaned at one year when i was pregnant with ds. i offered her the breast after he was born but although she sniffed it she had no interest and spat out the bm i ave her in a cup

Aww Hunker! Yeah you're right it was this thread. Reading it back now though, what you said was perfectly fair and well expressed, although I am sceptical myself about some of the information on the web re the virgin gut. I think I was pretty shocked at having to back up my OP so strongly, but actually it's good to have one's opinions challenged. It really makes you think and you can't get away with spouting cr*p without evidence to back it up.

I still believe that women should be told the truth though! And yes, that includes the whole truth about formula as well (although I still think formula's better than a hungry baby!) I just think we should be treated like grown-ups and given the full picture, warts and all (without having to go off and do research at what is at best a very stressful time), so that we can be fully prepared for the potential pitfalls and solutions.

I admit it shocked me the first time I had to back up my beliefs and ideas - it was nearly ten years ago I first posted on an online message board (I was 21 and far more outspoken than now - I've mellowed ) - not a parenting one, a news one. I just got stuck in though - I'm like that ).

You're right, formula's better than a hungry baby.

But I don't think that just making breastfeeding sound hard and painful is the way forward either - but I do agree that more should be talked about wrt bfeeding antenatally. So perhaps talking about the difficulties some women have, but alongside that discussion of why it is so important to seek help to overcome them if you do want to breastfeed, along with the reasons it is a really good idea to continue doing so.

The problem then is you run the risk of "making women feel guilty" if things don't work out.

It's a bloody minefield, I tells ya!

Yes, b/c I knew I'd have to go back to work.

Yep you're right, it's a minefield! FWIW, I think I felt more guilty having believed it would be straightforward than I would have done if I'd been more aware of the difficulties.

Sorry, this isn't going to be a very useful post and is just what I dick on about already on other threads. I agree with twinklemegan. The book I was given in pregnancy was the lovely Annabel Karmel's, and although she mentions breastfeeding problems, she doesn't mention anything about what to do if the baby just won't latch or can't latch, and I don't think this is untypical. There is honestly often no need to tell women about the dangers of formula feeding, because I think the kind of people who post here are the slightly motherhood-geekier ones, the ones who read everything and know everything and yet may still not be able to do anything, so that only makes us feel like Beelzebub when we do the 'bad' things, give formula, don't pump enough etc, because EVEN ONE BOTTLE of formula can lead to all sorts of bad. In fact, even from this thread, I've learned that combining EBM and formula (I do this! I don't express enough, I have never got her to latch) can somehow stop the 'good' effects of the breastmilk? Jesus! And yet, how can I not believe that? It's going to eat at me. It's already making me think why the eff am I expressing when contaminating with formula 2 minutes later is still going to turn her stomach upside down or something.

I know I sound a little highly strung here, it's really only an attempt at lightness, combined with sleep deprivation and not that elegant a sense of humour. But the thing I most want to do in the world right now is breast feed, and I can't, and the dangers of formula advice on the help-me-breastfeed threads is just one of the ways we (in our frustration, sure, and paranoia, and not being able to hear good advice because we are too exhausted to get what's being said) feel very guilty and bad. I don't want to sound as though I'm accusing anyone with good motives of making it worse, I'm just trying to say what I feel. Because I think it's a bit like what megan feels, and the original responses to megan's post were sort of, 'huh? what are you talking about?'

The original responses included mine, macneil, and I did want to know what TM was talking about - and TM came up with the 'feeling' that she got from leaflets, and when she quoted from them, I was able to say, convincingly I thought, that she was a) only reading some of the stuff out there and b) getting a 'feeling' from them which came from her, not the leaflet!

You're doing the same - you're saying that you feel you are 'contaminating' your baby's ebm by giving her formula as well, and you worry you are 'turning her stomach upside down' ....this stuff comes from you, and you only, because (I repeat what I said in November) feeding is emotional and we get ourselves upset when we want to do something that then becomes v. difficult.

For the record, formula has well-documented risks, but this does not mean babies who are not breastfed, or who are not breastfeeding effectively, should never have it. Many of breastmilk's benefits remain, despite the addition of formula

But Megan was talking about the fact that much of the early support systems/literature doesn't give enough of the when-it-goes-wrong - I really want the book recommended on this thread, sorry, can't remember the name 'what to expect'?, but I think it would only get out here to Canada in a few weeks, and I'm constantly feeling I'm in the twilight of my ability to keep trying (not because I'm giving up but because I'm sure her instinct for rooting for the breast can't live much longer). If you look it up on amazon, the reviews are polarised, it would seem, between very pro-bf people who are against the book, and women who've actually been helped by it, and they tend to be women who had problems. All I was trying to say - I put it in intentionally exaggerated terms to express the feeling we're getting rather than quoting the sources, and you've talked about that as just a feeling, but that's megan's point, isn't it? the way we're feeling, because that's what decides whether we give up! - is that when wonen are trying and failing to bf, the repeated billing of 'just one bottle' tips stories don't encourage AT ALL, they just increase the guilt or - as I said, after reading the thing about never have breast with formula - even make you think, well what I'm doing is no better than formula, hang it all, let's go to formula.

I love reading your posts about bfing, tiktok, because they are intuitive, whereas the forcing I had in the hospital from about a dozen different midwives, felt irrational and cruel to a new mum. You talk about the nice aspects of breastfeeding, and if I haven't made it work practically, it is inspiring, genuinely. But I can tell you that it isn't just paranoia/oversensitivity the feeling that megan and I are getting, or at any rate, if it is, it's because the literature/advice IS very often inadequately composed/presented in order to prevent that feeling. So I do still agree with megan, and wish that the resources were available at entry level.

I'm sorry Tiktok, I know you are an extremely generous and helpful poster and I wish I'd been around early enough to get advice from you, but I think you are misrepresenting me a bit. Because breastfeeding is an extremely emotional issue and "feelings" are everything - particularly in those early days of becoming a mother. Whether this or that is strictly factually correct is neither here nor there tbh. In fact, on this thread people have argued against more honesty in the basic literature in case discussing the potential pitfalls puts women off. But that would just be a personal reaction and "feelings" on their part surely? Denying this to women leads to us becoming disillusioned with our abilities as the initial difficulties come as a huge shock and I am convinced this is the cause of many women giving up prematurely. As I recently commented, I have seen many posts on MN since starting this thread that completely back up my point of view.

Macneil - I have since bought that book. It's called "What to expect when you're breastfeeding... and what if you can't". I wish I'd had it at the beginning. It is not purist and I can see how it could be unpopular in some ranks, but it is great for people like us because it omits the majority of the sanctimonious stuff and concentrates on the practicalities.

Just to add, can I just emphasise please that I am PRO-BREASTFEEDING!!! I started this thread to try to initiate a discussion about how it might be possible to cut the number of women who give up breastfeeding completely after a couple of weeks. I think that to avoid creating unrealistic expectations of the early days of breastfeeding could help in this. And of course this viewpoint comes from personal experience, but I would have thought that anybody who is interested in supporting breastfeeding would want to know how women feel about the information they are given.

I always assumed I would breastfeed for a year and actually believed (god help me) that women who didn't were rather lazy and bad, because I'd had that impression from a sort-of friend who's a practice nurse. Now, when I spend half an hour of every three pumping, another half hour making up formula, washing and sterilising bottles, and then try my baby on the breast, I could laugh at my early naive self if I weren't so cross with her. I'm also fervently pro breastfeeding, and the feeling of personal and unique failure for women who can't breastfeed and really want to is surely as important a consideration as women who just don't want to breastfeed and, having made that choice, being given the correct information that warns against making this choice. But I feel the bias is firmly on the latter, that's all, and that makes the former group feel awful.

So what would you want the literature to contain then? I'm genuinely interested - this isn't a glib remark.

I'm gonna have a think about that one, Hunker, and get back to you. I do have thoughts, but want to formulate them properly and not in my slightly tipsy New Year state!

Macneil - I couldn't agree more. I think that there should be two clear and distinct stages of information. The first aimed at getting women to breastfeed, the second helping those who have chosen to breastfeed to do so. The NHS is good at the first, and absolutely terrible at the second. If somebody has chosen not to breastfeed despite all the evidence that breast is best, like a friend of mine, then no amount of feel-good, softly-softly information is going to change their mind. But that same information can be positively unhelpful to women who have already made the choice to breastfeed.

Happy New Year!

My advise would be: Don't listen to medical professionals unless they are a bfing counsellor and even then to doubt them.

In my two day stay at the hospital I saw five different nurses who all gave me conflicting advise, and a lactation consultant that told me I should formula feed. So I would advise people to follow their gut and block everyone else out.

I don't think that would ever get published, but I really think I ended up not bfing because I left the hospital feeling confused and frustrated through no fault of my own.