Calling those who have stopped or been tempted to stop b/f before they wanted to...

[twinklemegan]

I have recently posted about this on another thread but I am now curious... has anyone out there given up/been tempted to give up breastfeeding because of the unrealistic way it is sometimes promoted?
eg b/f should be pain free and enjoyable;
any formula (even if desperate) inevitably leading to the end of b/f;
MWs not being allowed to recommend nipple shields even if woman is in excrutiating pain and scared of feeding;
assumptions that every woman has the support to be able to feed baby 24/7 if needed...
you get the idea.
Is it time to inject a bit of reality into the b/f literature and would this help some women to continue with at least some b/f??
Discuss!
PS I'm quite new on MN and I don't want to offend anyone - please be gentle with me!!

Lucy1977 - here's the reference to "just one bottle" I was talking about

And more on the virgin gut here

I thought it was important enough for my babies to keep on bfeeding them exclusively, because I have a couple of weirdy allergies and horrible eczema flare-ups. However, I think it's something that should be more widely known.

I tried to breastfeed my dd; within 4 days dh would have to latch her on for me whilst I clutched the bedclothes and (literally) bit on a stick to stop screaming; I groaned through every feed with tears pouring down my face. At 8 days I had 2 MWs sitting watching this procedure (the usual one had seen it many times by then and had brought a friend along) saying to each other "that's not normal pain is it?". No one could tell me what was wrong, it wasn't mastitis or thrush. I was given no options other than getting bottles. I was bullied into it "babiy's losing weight". No one mentioned nipple shields. A friend told me about some sort of spray which anaesthetised the nipples but the MWs were horrified when I asked and none of the chemists I went to seemed to know anything about it. To my shame and misery dd was bottle fed from 9 days. I am sad to find that I could have tried nipple shields if those bloody MWs had mentioned them (I couldn't think straight, and had never heard of them until now believe it or not!). I still don't know what the problem was. What really got my goat was women who were breast feeding saying "oh yes, it was painful at first, but I just kept on trying" like I was just pathetic.

Hi Twinkle, no you're not going mad . I feel the same.
My dd was combi feed from 4 weeks due to weight loss and no she quite happily has a bit of mummy with her bottle feed. On average she has 23 oz from a bottle and 7 from me. I found that my milk adjusted to what she wants although I've started my periods again (I'd forgotten all about things like period pains and icky pads).
Its worth mentioning though that when she recently went thru a change of taste (I was using the tetra pack formula and went to powered - she didn't like it. Apparently it the same milk but as tetra pack stuff is sterilsed by boiling it makes it a bit creamer?!?!?!) she wanted more from the breast and my body adapted to give it to her.
As far as MV and breast feeding, I heard (from nct breast pump hiring person so don't shoot me!!)that they only have 1 day's training (for a doctor they have 30 mins!) so I found NCT really useful. Could never get thru to a councellor but had I of I'm sure it would have been great.
In the end dd has found her own rhythm and its all dictated by her. You do feel that you have to admit to formula kinda under your breath and if you have a problem with it there is no help out there, the focus is very much on bf.
In the end I found the Cow and Gate helpline the best use, they even helped with ideas for combi feeding and how to ensure dd has some bf.

Cassoulet, I definatly think you should have had more support to continue bf. My experience was exactly like yours with my DD and I perservered with the pain for about 4-6 weeks DD drinking more blood than milk I think.. It was dreadful. Then finally a HV helped me to latch on properly. I think the problem is that most midwives I have come across can't help with bf at all. They are totally useless IMO. You need a properly trained bf councellor if you have problems and one who believe that most women can bf their babies.

I really think combining formula and breast is the beginning of the end. Bf IS hard work, but you got to feed on demand even if baby demands feeds all the time for a few days as it is only because baby wants to opt its milk supply and this is how nature works.

There are lots of literature about this. I read lots before I had my first baby and being educated and informed gave me the confidence to continue and the knowledge of the difference between forula and breast milk which left no doubt in my mind what I wanted to do even if painful and hard work.

With ds (first time baby) I had bad advice and outrageous guilt-tripping (on day 3) to top him up (the advice to express didn't come until day 4 - helpful ), leading to a baby that refused my breast at some/most feeds for nearly 4 weeks. I wish I'd had MN at thast point, but I was in hospital for 5 days after losing a lot of blood - I was on my feet and felt fine from day 2, but they wouldn't let me go - and then in with ds for another 4 days as he had jaundice (funny how the topping up didn't stop him having to have phototherapy ). Anyway, I struggled for those 4 weeks, trying ds at my breast, expressing, topping up with EBM or, if there wasn't enough (I was a crap expresser) formula. It was never ever painful - if I had had pain too I don't know what sort of state I'd have been in. As it was, I was very very low at several points during this, because the image I had had of bf was something that 'just happens' naturally, I was desperate to bf and all of this had shell-shocked me. But I would argue that this image was my fault - the info about potential problems was out there, I just hadn't sought it out pre-birth. Although I had already given formula, the effects of formula were still a powerful motivator for me, to get ds off it as soon as possible. It was very, very hard, at that time, to hear about the problems of formula feeding, but why should they have been kept from me? Anyway, we succeeded in the end - ds gradually stopped refusing and had his last bottle of formula at 4 weeks, and I stopped the expressing too - and we are still bf at 17 months.
Tbh I think agencies that promote bf are between a rock and a hard place. The public perception of bf in what is still a largely bottle-feeding culture is that it is hard, a hassle etc., and at some level the promotion of bf has to work against that - but if it does so it gets accused of not talking about the difficult sides. And as I said, I do think the information about potential problems is there.
Btw when I contacted a bf supporter during my troubles, I received no condemnation at all for mixed feeding (I didn't know at that stage whether I would have to carry on doing so) - I even got tips, such as not to give EBM and formula at the same feed. I also had a fantastic MW who reminded me that every mouthful of breastmilk ds was getting was doing him good.

first time mother/first baby

Hi FoundInTranslation. You say you were advised not to give EBM and formula at same feed. What was the reason? Does this also apply to putting baby to the breast before giving formula?? I used to breastfeed and give formula at separate feeds, but because I didn't know how much breastmilk he was getting I never knew when he would be hungry again and loads of formula got wasted when I misred his signals!

It's so the formula doesn't 'interfere' with the properties of the EBM at that particular feed (of course, the gut changes overall due to giving formula can't be 'stopped' that way).
As far as formula after bf is concerned, it can't be helped then.

It is possible that the pain wasn't coming from your nipples, Cassoulet, in which case nipple shields wouldn't have helped all that much (you don't say if they were cracked or not), although that's probably not much comfort. But having said that, I found nipple shields really helpful to get over the psychological hurdle of latching baby on, as well as protecting my nipples. BUT it did still really hurt and when I weaned him off the shields it STILL really hurt. I realised in the end that it was actually the let down of milk that was still causing me so much pain and nothing I did helped with this, though some times were worse than others. It has only recently stopped hurting!

So should I be going back to breastfeeding him at separate times from giving formula do you think? Which organisation did you contact BTW?

I think it was ABM (easy to remember as so close to EBM - lol).

Twinkle, I understand where you're coming from on this too and a few weeks ago was discussing this very issue with my SIL who has had a bad time with bf (several bouts of mastitis and an abscess which had to be drained under GA). She had just complained to her NCT antenatal teacher that although they had found time to tell them that bf would make their babies more intelligent, no mention had been made of potential problems like painful feeding, mastitis etc. The NCT teacher said they can't cover everything and I do agree that they can't.

However - it seems to me in my limited experience that mothers have already decided whether or not to bf before their babies arrive. I know my SIL and I both really wanted to bf our babies. We both think that we didn't need to be told all the benefits at length at our antentatal classes because we'd already made our decision and so had the other women there. What would have been more useful for us would have been frank discussion of the possible problems and challenges of the first few weeks, and practical strategies for overcoming them. Perhaps people reading this will disagree and say that the classes helped them make up their mind - in which case of course I'll totally respect that.

And I think I heard on the news that the claim that breastmilk makes babies more intelligent has been discredited?? (I said I think! Don't all jump on me please!!) I would say it's probably more to do with the fact that mothers who b/f (or try very hard to b/f) MAY be statistically more likely to spend more time on their baby's general development too - don't want to offend anyone here. But I notice this claim is still appearing on the NHS breastfeeding website.

Sorry, always have afterthoughts after I've posted! I agree, at my hospital antenatal class on breastfeeding all but one of the women there had already made up their mind to breastfeed. There were notable absentees from the class who had been to all the others.

I've not read all the posts but I think the OP has made a good point. I don't think it does new mothers any favours at all to conceal or gloss over the "bad bits" of breastfeeding in antenatal literature.
The reality is that many women experience difficulties in the early days/weeks of b/f and this is when many of them give up. Why? Well, I think in part because they think that there is something wrong with them because these difficulties can't be normal otherwise they would have read about them. Most of the literature says that b/f only hurts if the positioning is wrong, but a significant number of women experience excruiciating pain as the baby latches on for a period of around 2 weeks. Plus the phrase that the "positioning is wrong" implies "I'm doing it wrong" ie. "I'm useless" (in the muddled mind of a post-partum woman anyway.)
Of course the other reason that women give up is because unless you are very lucky good breastfeeding support is virtually non-existent. It's ironic that all the antenatal input pushes breastfeeding and its benefits but as soon as the baby is born the solution to any difficulty is to put the baby on a bottle. And that's not just from granny, but from a lot of health professionals too.

This was certainly my experience with breastfeeding first-time round. I had the excruciating latch, the fussy baby who wanted to feed all the time but refused the breast because my let-down was too fast and I just wasn't prepared for it. I got little or no support, introduced the odd bottle and although I perservered with mostly b/f for 12 weeks (because I'm bloody-minded like that) my confidence by that time was completely shot, and I gave up.

Luckily by the time I was pregnant with ds2 I'd discovered the NCT and now knew where to find good b/f info. Although I had a lot of the same problems I managed to get past them and b/f him for 2 1/2 years and I'm still b/f dd who's 2 in January.

I know the reason they don't go into graphic detail in the literature is that they don't want to put women off b/f altogether. But maybe if they were more honest, they'd help more of those who are motivated to b/f to continue as they wouldn't feel like there was something wrong with them when the going gets tough.

I'm sure you're all getting sick of me by now, but does anyone know why demand feeding is sold as the only way to breast feed these days? I know all the stuff about supply and demand and that it's the natural way, etc. etc., but my mum fed me on more or less a four hourly schedule (as did almost everyone back then I think) and I turned out OK (more or less!).

Twinkle - haven't read all the posts, but totally agree with your op. After reading the usual plethora of pregnancy books (most of which also include a bit on what to expect in the first day or two of motherhood) I truly expected my dd to crawl up my body (after a completely natural waterbirth of course), latch herself on beautifully and suck herself into peacefull oblivion (all night long needless to say!). Of course reality couldn't really have been more different with dd screaming blue murder every time I tried to latch her on, extreme anaemia following major blood loss (after my bodged section, cracked nipples etc etc...
I struggled through it and managed to bf dd for 7 months but many many times I wished that the literature had been a little less idealistic and basically said - yes it's difficult, yes it hurts like hell, most people have a hard time of it at least for a short while but it will get better and you can get through it. I'm not talking about specific publications - just that that's the impression I got from the literature that I read at that time - of course that may just have been me taking from it what I wanted to hear.

Having said that, with ds I expected the worst and he latched himself on beautifully and sucked himself to a peacefull oblivion so every experience is different which is maybe why it's so hard for health professionals to provide advice that suits everyone

I have to say I wish I'd found MN earlier and may have still been BF. I read everything I could wwnt to the dedicated BF class prior to birth. Told MW if it was a non negociable issue for I was going to BF. I had also told everyone I came into contact with I had PCOS, at 3am on day 5 I was told to send DH down to birth centre to collect formula. I was so exhausted and DD had been screaming for hours that he went. MW came next day said latch etc was fine and to keep latching DD as often as poss and milk would come in. Day 10 no milk come in bewildered and exhauseted MW said just give in and FF!!! None of the proffessionals put a link to the PCOS and milk not coming in. I didn't read it anywhere in any literature I think that BF info should have info about the probs as well as benefits so people can be prepared.

How long did your mum feed you for, twinkle?

A routine right from the beginning can make it very very difficult to get bf well established, as it takes 6-8 weeks, usually, to reliably establish supply. I would hazard a guess that demand feeding is also good from an attachment POV.

Twinkle, as a mother of 3, still B/F the 4.5 month old, I am with you. Even DD3 was a painful start for weeks for me. I make it my business to tell (when asked) that it can be painful and it is hard work, but well worth it.
I have had mastitis, bleeding nipples, and no end of well meaning breastfeeding experts with there own version of what latching on should be (can they all be right)
The references supplied by ABadMouse are not what I would call evidence based!

There are mountains of papers showing that breastfeeding is more likely to succeed (ie last for longer and be a more effective way of nourishing the baby) if the mother feeds according to her baby's cues....call it 'demand feeding' if you like, but it's merely responding to the baby's needs. What can be wrong with that?

Twinkle, your mother's experience was unusual. Four hourly feeding is likely to result in am underfed baby and a poor milk supply - this is based on, as I say, papers where the combined no. of babies probably runs into many thousands. Added to that, our understanding of the physiology of breastfeeding is simpy not compatible with scheduled feeds.

If you are speaking of 30 or so years ago when you say 'back then', that was a very low point in the UK for breastfeeding. It was only with a better understanding of how bf works - from the mid-80s onwards - that we began to see the stats creep up, and even then they stayed the same for about 20 years.

Sometimes, mothers 'get away' with scheduling, but no one sensible would advise mothers to do this in the early days and weeks, because it is not likely to work!

Simple, really

7 months, I believe. And I think I read somewhere that demand feeding in the early days can actually be harmful as a sleepy baby doesn't always demand - like mine.

Oh dear, have I just given away my age TikTok! I understand what you're saying I just think it's interesting. BTW, my mum was then unable to b/f my brother who from all accounts sounds very like my good son!!

I am 31 - my mum was unable to bf me for long (a few weeks, I think) and then stopped because "she didn't have enough milk" - I think she scheduled feeds so that if I was hungry in between times she assumed her milk wasn't satisfying enough. Most of her friends from the same generation have this idea that either women have enough milk to feed their babies or not - some women just have "plenty of milk" - I don't think they are very aware of the supply and demand thing.

My ds is 5 months and I exclusively breast fed him until he was 11 weeks old - was planning on feeding until he was 6 months but... At 7 weeks he started to scream 5 minutes into a feed, EVERY feed quick look at my books/internet/chat with HV and we diagnosed reflux, poor lamb had gaviscon syringed 4 times a day into his mouth but it didn't seem to help much.. Came to a head one night when he point blankly refused to feed, even coming near my breast would set him off.. Me hysterical by now, off to Dcotor who said PUT HIM ON A BOTTLE. Best bit of advice I have ever had. No-one (not NCT/HV etc. suggested this in the 4 weeks I was struggling and I feel terrible that he had all this gavison when all that was wrong was that he just didn't like the taste of my milk!

Ironically I never suffered from cracked nipples or anything and when I gave up overnight and was worried about engorement/infection, they were sore for 1 day then fine.

On reflection I was so stubborn about breast feeding even though I dreaded each and every feed in the end. I think I suffered from having a sister who bf all 3 for 15 months each and felt like a failure if I didn't. This is just so wrong and if we have no.2 I will be introducing bottle as late night feed WITH formula from the word go!