DESPERATE and CONCERNED

[sistergrim]

Please help me. My 2 day old son is really struggling to breast feed and doesn't seem to be latchng on or making much effort atall to suck. What do I do? Midwife has said to give some formula in the emantime but am quite against it though obviously don't want to harm my baby by him going without - really don't think he has had hardly anything at all since born and `i mean virtually nothing. My breats are now rock solid so assume the milk is coming in. Midwife said thought nipples did not stick out enough. Am going to a clinic tomorrow but what should we do, how long can i leave baby this way?

You are probably very tired Sistergrim. You've just had a baby so it will take time till you feel better and less weak etc.
You are doing great because you are doing the best thing for your baby.
Don't worry how long he feeds for, my dd fed for 11 minutes at that age and no more for hours then went down to 3 minutes. I always thought that it was too quick but she was growing and sleeping etc. She was just a quick feeder and I had fast milk! She did feed on and off all evening though and thats very normal.
Have you family or friends near who can come and see you ??

Agree you are doing well, but I'm worried by how sad you sound.Do you think it might be worth chatting to your HV about possible PND? Also, have you had professional breastfeeding help? By which I mean call your maternity ward and ask if the hospital has a breastfeeding clinic or if there is a nearby breastfeeding clinic/baby cafe you can go to to actually talk to a real live human being about all this and SHOW them what you are doing. Your HV may be able to recommend one, but remember HVs are not breastfeeding specialists and I think you may well benefit hugely from seeing one.

you are doing really well. yes try to rest, will take a efw weeks for you to settle down anway eevn with feeding diffs.

whereabouts in London are you? there are a fair amount of breastfeeding cafe places about, or maybe there's a group near you. or even some mners?

sistergrin - there is so much support on this thread for you, which is great, but some of the info may not be applicable to you. I won't list the things I thought 'oh no!' at, but not everyone who wants to support you has the right info for you....so you might find it better to speak to someone face to face who knows about breastfeeding and how to make it work for you.

You were going to see a breastfeeding clinic - how did that go?

I think you need a lot of friendship and support and help in real life - not just on a bulletin board, where all the voices shout at once, however well-meaning, and can add to the confusion.

That's why I am not going to say anything about the feeding or give you suggestions!

I am not a breastfeeding counsellor but I saw one when struggling myself and I cannot tell you what a difference it made. Loads of women walked in distraught and literally sobbing and went out much more positive. Mine was at the hospital. Please do go.

Think you are amazing sistergrim, but like a couple of people here have said, please insist on getting real life help, a person sitting with you for at least one entire feed and putting everything in the right place. Barnet General used to have (and I hope still does have) a bf drop-in on a Friday morning, but if this is not close enough for you to get to tomorrow, please don't wait, ring your health visitor and ask who you can see straight away. Perhaps they can even get someone to visit you at home.

You asked about feeding from one side. The answer is that it is possible, and I did it for 9 months with my son. I was advised against it (quite correctly, I'm sure it is better to have both available!) but was supported when I finally made that decision and told how to let the other side go without making myself ill.

I promise that when it all clicks into place you will start to recover from this very difficult time. It is hard for the people who love you to watch you struggle, but unfortunately that's one more thing you can do without at the moment. They will be so pleased when it is all going well for you.

I never once worried about amounts. I'd have had no idea how much breastmilk my babies were getting. I just assumed it woudl be enough. I would get someone who knows about it to come round and help you do the latching on and ditch the nipples shields, expressing, syringes etc as soon as you can. My sister in law gave up feeding her first but hired a breastfeeding expert for her second and fed for a year, no bottles or anything. It's definitely worth getting expert help. New babies are designed to lose weight and if they are hungry enough they tend to get what they need from you.

Also having a new baby is tiring and emotional and difficult so none of your feelings are unusual. You say he doesn't feed without the sheilds. What happens when you put him near your breast. Does he try to root out where it is and open his mouth to try to get on to it?

I have just read this thread and wanted to let you know that you are doing really well. It can be really hard in the beginning, but as everyone has said, there is help out there. Your health visitor will be able to put you in touch with breasftfeeding counsellors and clinics, and other new mums. Before you know it you'll be a dab hand at all of the things that you are worrying about, so please don't stress too much. It does get better, honest!

Hi Sistergrim

If you are worried about the nipple shields I have know of mums that have sucessfully weaned their babies of them by trimming them with sisors every day, a small bit at the time. If you want to give it a go without them, that's a easy and simple method by all accounts.

Like the other fantastic pleople on this Thread, I just want to tell you how well you are doing.

Reading your lastest post reminded me SO much of what I felt like after having DS. The confusion, the conflicting advice, the timing feeds/counting nappies, the worry.

When I look back, nothing I did really changed apart from I STOPPED timing feeds, counting nappies etc. The breastfeeding became more and more normal. It will be the same for you. Just take every day as it comes. You are doing such a wonderful thing for your baby and for you and you should take a few moments to feel proud of yourself.

Its normal to be freaked out by how much your life has changed, readjustment takes time too. My DS would come home to me looking like hell, the house a complete tip, with milk stains on my shoulder to be bombarded with "I'm worried about this, that etc". But, we stuck with it, things fixed themselves and believe it or not we both look back at those days with great nostalgia now.

There is no 'back of a packet' to read for breastfeeding. Breast milk is different stuff to formuula, breastfeeding is a totally different method. There are no set amounts, times to feed etc - let that make you feel liberated, not confused. You kind of learn to 'feel' your way around it. You start notcing the sounds your baby makes, how empty & full your breasts are etc, it just takes time.

I think I felt very similar to you. I had such problems at the start, they never gave me any letup it seemed but I soldiered on through, and so have millions of other mums and so will you. You WILL feel calm and happy and content again. Time and perseverance will heal everything.

Sending you a big hug x x x x

Can't get over how amazing everyone's support is. Afraid I feel things taking a turn for the worse - i am feeling incredibly unwell and don't know where or who to turn to. Know there are lots of groups out there but just can't get out the house at the moment. Am now worried my milk is stopping - he fed for 2 hours this pm - that's not right is it? He was sucking all the time - am not convinced he was getting anything to be sucking for that long.

All i want is for it to be ok - i can't go on like this, I just can't but i don'tt want to give up either. feel so ill.

Sistergrim....you need help, not just support on mumsnet, which is great, but does not come even close to meeting your needs.

I am gonna repeat myself - you need to see someone who knows about breastfeeding and who will watch you feed and listen to you. There is no substitute for this.

If it is hard for you to get out to see someone, then someone must come to you.

Your baby is still young enough for you to call on a midwife to come to your house. I hope you will feel able to ring the number for your local midwives - the maternity unit will have it if you don't - and express just how low you feel and how you need someone as soon as possible to see you.

If you feel unable to do this, then perhaps your dh will do it for you.

Good luck.

They often do feed for 2 hours. That means you're doing it right and he's getting enough. I can almost guarantee you that. It's when they can't latch on they get reaelly frustrated and don't suck. If you're not latched on you can't suck for 2 hours. This means you're doing it very very well and should just carry on. Sucking is his greatest pleasure and you're giving him htat. It's fine.

Does he have wet nappies? If so he's drinking your milk. The more and the longer he sucks the more milk your body will make.

If you're not feeling well in what sense? Have you taken your temperature in case you have a high one?

Hi again Sistergin

First of all, two hour feeding happens sometimes. Young baby's can feed slowly or cluster feeding can mean your baby is having a growth spurt and building up your milk supply. Don't worry about your supply. As long as your baby is feeding, there will be milk.

What Tiktok said is very wise. Get someone to come over to your house. Call your midwife or health visitor and tell them that you need someone to come around, watch you feed and talk your problems through with you. They should do this, it's their job. It's what I did and I can tell you it was a REAL HELP. I had a very supportive health visitor & midwife, both came around and watched me feed at different times, reassured me about some things.

Just hang on in there and give one of them a call asap. In the mean time try and stay calm. Get as much rest as you can - sleep when your baby sleeps. Think about how far you have come so far.

Which area do yo live in? I'm friends with a lady who is a Breastfeeding Peer Supporter for Surestart. I would happly get in touch with her and find out what other breast feeding suppor people there are nationally than can do home visits. In the mean time, a home visit from a good pro-breastfeeding midwife tomorrow should do you the world of good.

One health visitor gave me all these phrases which I would repeat in my head to help with my positioning...

Angle of the Dangle (i.e don't pull your breast out of shape - it can be like the baby drinking through a straw)
Tummy to Mummy
Baby to breast (as opposed to breast to baby)
Nipple to nose

Sending you a big hug x x x YOU CAN DO IT x x x

sistergrim- i so wish i was in london so i could come and give you a big hug. you are doing so well and wanting to do the best for your baby. my dd is 5 months old now and in all honesty in the first few days i had no clue whatsoever about feeding, nappies, sleeping or anything. i just muddled on through. for the first 3 days she basically slept non stop and fed very little. dh and i just sat there looking at her with no idea what to do.

i found kellymom.com very helpful with all aspects of breastfeeding and also a book called 'bestfeeding' by renfrew, fisher and arms. my fabulous midwife recommended it to me. is there anyone who could go and get that book for you? or could you get it from amazon?

the problem with a forum like this is that you almost get too much well meaning advice, it can all get so confusing. please try some of the helplines the others have suggested and get someone out to see you. i know the idea of leaving the house to get some help must be the last thing you'd want to do.

take care.

Hi sistergrim. I'm so sorry to hear that you have been having such an up and down time with the breast feeding, especially when you would have hoped to be enjoying your little one. I had lots of problems trying to feed both my DD's. I know that you really want to feed your DS yourself BUT (and I presume I'm opening myself up for all sorts of criticism by saying this) the most important thing is that you and your son are okay. In my limited experience, breastfeeding is pretty hard at the beginning for the majority of people for many different reasons. I was desperate to breastfeed and was surrounded by lots of people who all wanted me to succeed.

The thing that I wanted to say here is that yes, breastfeeding is best BUT if, for whatever reason, it really is not working and is turning the first X weeks of your son's life into a living hell then bottle feeding is okay. Before anyone rushes in to criticize me for saying that, I am not saying that you should give up your attempts at breastfeeding, I saying that there is a viable alternative and if you decide to take that route then you are not a bad mother or a failure, infact you've done really, REALLY well to get this far and your baby will be all the better off for it. Sometimes when you stop to think that the alternative (in this case turning to formula) is not actually as bad as you think it is then it makes you relax a bit more, which in turn might make the whole breastfeeding situation more relaxed, which should therefore make it easier, which would obviously make all the difference in the world to you at this point ... if that makes any sense at all. I wish someone would have said that to me when I had my first baby because I think it would have helped me (although I appreciate that this might sound like complete mumbo-jumbo and be doing nothing for you!) because I was SO uptight about b/feeding being the only solution that I was actually in a vicious circle and affecting my own let-down/milk supply etc.

I really hope that things work out for you and that you get to continue breastfeeding if that's what you want and are able to do. The breastfeeding councillors I met were excellent (and there is/was a particularly good one at St. George's hospital in London called Elizabeth Thompson if you are anywhere near there) and will help you and your baby and meeting them I'm sure would be the most tremendous relief. If, for whatever reason however, it does not work out then don't be too hard on yourself because your baby will be fine, these unhappy days will become a distant memory and, although it's not what you would have chosen, your little boy needs you to be okay (for him) too.

Sorry to be so woffly, I'm trying really hard to write this in a way so that I don't offend anyone's belief's.

Congratulations on your baby and best of luck with it all.

Just wanted to add taht another reason for the two hour feeding could be that yourbaby is enjoying suckling and was very content to stay there for hours. My DS would happily of suckled the day away of I had let him. You will start to notcie when he is feeding properly or just suckling with time.

I was wrong to say 'you can do it'. If you are anything like I was you probably already ARE doing it and you're confidence has taken a bashing.

Get that help and support of a home visit.

Your comments have really brought it all back for me and this why I have posted on this thread so much. I remember what I felt like at the start, it took me so long to feel confident and stop questioning everything. I just need you to know that its not as bad as it seems and you will be fine.

x x x

sistergrim,

I will try not to hijack your thread, but sometimes it's good to know you are not alone... I'm the dad, BTW!

My daughter, Lauren Rose was born on Saturday 21st October (hey, that's a week ago now!) and since then we've had an awful, awful job with breastfeeding. Here's the timeline:

Saturday, 11am: Gave birth, short labour and water birth. No complications. Everything perfect

Saturday, 7pm: After several successful feeds, we are dicharged from hospital. Everything looking good

Sunday 1am: I come down with a 24 hour stomach bug. Spend next 18 hours being sick into the sick while sitting on the toilet.

Sunday: Call family, get help, panic!

Throughout this time, we are really, really struggling with breastfeeding. Every feed is a battle, sometimes taking hours and hours just to get a single latch. We're all getting stressed.

Monday: Bad night. Feeding going poorly. Baby won't latch, we're worried that she's not getting enough food. Baby lethargic during the day; is this normal? Is she starving?

Tuesday: Worse night! Baby fed once, for 20 minutes after a 5 hour battle. All three of us are exhausted and miserable. We're also worried that she's not feeding enough.

Tuesday PM: Midwife visits with scales. Our fears are confirmed when we are told that she's lost 11% of her body weight which is more than the 10% that the NHS like to stay below. Midwife is also concerned about the poor feeds and sleepiness. We are admitted back onto the maternity ward.

Tuesday PM - Thursday PM: Mother and baby (not me, sadly!) spend two nights on the ward doing an intensive mother and baby breastfeeding training course. Mummy's milk has come in, so they teach her how to express and daddy how to cup feed. Formula is not even discussed ("if there's enough fresh stuff coming out of the udders, why bother to drink coke?") First couple of feeds are done by cup to regain strength. Mother then begins breastfeeding again (somewhat relucatantly as her confidence is very low).
By Thursday, things are going much better and we are again discharged. Yey!

Thursday night: Decent feeds. Multiple, good length slurps right through the night. Mother happier.

Friday day: Baby still wants to sleep for hours and hours without food. Mum and dad worry.

Friday night: Good feeding. Baby seems to want to feed 3 or 4 times in short succession, then sleep for 4 hours. We can live with this. Last night feed at 7.30am.

Saturday day: Baby sleeps 'til 1pm. Errr, that's over 5 hours. Worried parents wake her and she takes a good feed. She's lovely and alert so she gets some "tummy time" in the lounge with mum and dad. She then sleeps 'til 5.30pm. Another half decent feed. She then sleeps until 9.30pm! Mum and dad still worried. Baby won't rouse properly, and when she attempts to feed, she just falls asleep. I phone the ward while mum continues to try and, surprise surprise, after an hour's effort (and just as I get through to the midwife) she latches on and takes an 18 minute feed. Damn babies.

And that's where we are! We're both very, very wobbly. This baby wants to sleep for England, and we're terrified that it's bad for her, so we are waking her, which means that she is getting very crabby. She's feeding much better now, so we hope she's regaining weight (we'll find out tomorrow) but it's all nerve wracking. Please, please, please remember that you are not alone. Pester poke and prod the NHS until they come up with the goods for you on this. The resource is there - in fact, IMHO there isn't a single thing that the NHS do that is more important than early baby care - make them work and get the support you need!

I've written the above essay so that, hopefully, you can pick out bits that are common to your experience and you can realise that you're not alone and that help is out there! For us, NCT, LLL and, of course, the NHS midwives and staff have helped us. I hope they can do the same for you!

Best wishes,

Daern (Burnley, Lancashire)

Sistergrim - how are today ? Are you anywhere in the North London area ?

You are obviously quite distressed and I can understand why. I had the exact same problem with my DS not latching at all for the first few days of his life, but overcame this with a lot determination (and DS and I getting upset and crying a lot). I was seriously depressed but didn't know it at the time.

I am very happy to meet you somewhere to help you. Please don't be freaked out by this, I am not a weirdo, I have been a member of LLL and have bf for the past 2.4 years and having had similar problems initially I feel I might be able to help.

If you don't wish to meet me, I can introduce you to my local LLL leader who may be able to visit you or get someone to visit you.

Please CAT me if you are interested. I can email you my phone number and we can talk over the phone if you wish.

daern, I think birth is tiring and some babies do want to sleep. Some do because they have juandice. Some mothers say make the most of the first sleepy 3 weeks because after that all hell is let loose and some hardly sleep at all.

I thought a 2 hour feed was a very good sign because only if you're probably latched on can you feed for 2 hours. If you can't latch on you get frustrated and cry and won't be forced against it as a baby.

It doesn't look that different from normal babies and if you haven't had a normal baby you can't know that. Children are unpredictable and you can't fathom them half the time and I find that even with my oldest being 22. It's a very imperfect process with no certainty. If the nappies are wet and you're having some regular longish feeds I don't think there's any problem but I do think people benefit from getting a breastfeeding counsellor to come to the house and help with latching on and feeding. Found via NCT, LLL, Association of Breastfeeding mothers and others.

Your description looked like a pattern of things getting better actually. Don't worry about the sleeing. The baby is only 2 weeks old.

all of the stories and advice is so good to get and all of it makes such sense. unfortunately i remain upset, down and more than anything so, so confused.

i can accept sleepless nights;2 hour feeds; constant feeding etc,etc, but i can't handle the way the feeding feels. i am never convinced i am providing what is needed or going about it the right way.

i keep seeking support from all these organisations but end up more confused and concerned. have to use shields he just won't go on without-but being told they don't get as much through them and that the lack of direct contact will diminish my supply-but what am i meant to do if that the only way he will feed.

someone has said i need to be expressing 8 times a day as well, someone else says this not necessary. what do i do....

so, so scared of losing supply- but if i feed 8 times a day and express there is no time lefyt for any quality time with him, or for anything. and when do i express-told after a feed but then he sometimes wants to feed again straight away and i've expressed everything off.

in the beginning when expressing i was getting 125mls now struggling to get 20mls - so distressed by this.

Midwife was terrible don't know who to go to, so many different people offering but who can actually help us- feel like going private is only option but don't have alot of money and people seem to suggest there should be help out there on nhs but who do i go to.

Just need help....

sistergrim, who have you contacted? breastfeeding network or la leche league? where are you in london (roughly)? as tiktok (who is a bf counsellor) has said, any advice you get here is just not going to be as good as meeting with an expert - let us see how we can achieve that.

sorry yellowrose, didn't see your post. sistergrim i also know a really good counsellor in east london. i'm sure other mners can find someone near you.