Considering giving up breastfeeding due to sleep issues - need honest input

[tinierclanger]

DD is 4 months old now and has never really slept well. Until a few weeks ago she occasionally slept 4 hours at the beginning of the night, but now the best she does is 3. She will then wake every 1 or 2 hours and want feeding back to sleep. We spend some of the night cosleeping but not all.

I have no problems feeding her, she is fed entirely on demand in the day and feeds about every 2 hours, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter. I don't want to stop but I am so drawn to the prospect of getting more sleep - some days I cope ok but others I am shattered and a horrible person to be around, affecting my relationship with DH and DS

My fear though is that if I start FF she will wake just as often and then I will have bottles to deal with. In all honesty is this likely or is she more likely to sleep in proper stretches, rather than waking to nibble on me? Obviously the main incentive is that I could get DH to do one night a week and I could just sleep...

45 minutes is a sleep cycle for a baby, it's where they come into light sleep. Seem babies will resettle after a minute or two of moaning, other babies will need more help to go back to sleep (boob, bottle, dummy, rocking etc). If I waited outside my boys room at the 45 minute mark, as soon as he stirred, I went in, replaced his dummy and left. It worked about half the time, and I would get another couple of hours out of him.

Is it? That explains a lot.

Yes Bambam. It is a symptom of his Autism and I have been battling for 4 years to get him professional help with that.

His non-sleeping is pathological and a part of his disability. He is not typically developing like my other two and doesn't release enough melatonin. It's likely he didn't sleep enough in the womb also.

Well that changes things completely then doesn't it?

Not really a comparable situation. I hope you eventually get help you need.

Horse, we're going to do something like that now but with rocking to sleep I think instead of bottle. We did that for DS and then gradually weaned him off the rocking. Then maybe try dream feed either as BF/EBM/formula.

If we give one FF is it still safe to cosleep if I am breastfeeding later in the night?

DD is happy in the day so I think this is not affecting her, which is great. DS I think WAS affected by his poor sleep. Agree that babies in the womb have an optimum sleep environment that's not replicated outside so they may need a bit of help.

I want to reiterate that I am NOT expecting sleeping through or anything. I know it's normal for babies to wake 2 or 3 times a night while they're under a year. I just need to get to that level of waking. And I have probably read every bit of sleep literature under the sun

If/when we do 'sleep train' it will be gentle, NCSS/gradual retreat/Jay Rayner type gubbins.

Is Andrea grace "gentle"? I presume it's all done by phone? I have mentally set aside some money for help if necessary in a few months.

Yes gentle. We did a bit of pUPD then gradual retreat. I can't recommend her enough.

Starlight, in what other ways do you think we should model our childrearing on what 'other animals' do?

I think the links between FF and SIDS are more to do with the fact that FF mothers tend to smoke, and not to plan cosleeping, they end up doing it accidentally. Obviously, that is just my own view, dont take it as gospel! Is your bed and sleep arragemnents set up for co sleeping? Light blankets, firm mattress etc?

I breast fed and formula fed and co slept (still do sometimes!) with no issues.

A dream feed is a great idea, we used it to great effect until about 7 months. I think the only issue with rocking to sleep is that you will effectively be teaching her that that is how you go to sleep, so you may be back here in a few months time going "how do I stop rocking my baby to sleep?" I didn't want to rock my boy, so I lie down with him instead.

So maybe do BF, bath, then sit in a quiet warm room with baby until she falls asleep. If you are happy rocking to sleep that's fine, but I didn't want to get caught in the trap of rocking a two year old to sleep. Babies get heavy!! I do think you will find it hard to settle her down without a feed or a dummy of some sort though. Have you tried a dummy dipped in breast milk?

We did BF, bath, then BF or FF all within 40 minutes, baby in bedroom by 6.30pm. He'd then sleep till 10-11pm, when I would give a BF dream feed, in his room, no noise, no lights.

I did CC at 5 months. It was hard, but I was having psychotic episodes due to lack of sleep! So it was very important to teach my baby that it was time to go to sleep, but I would be there if he woke up.

Captain

Yes we are set up for cosleeping - carefully located pillow, sheet and cellular blanket on bed.

I just thought rocking/walking as an alternative because we did manage to wean DS off it. I'm not sure she would ever fall asleep just being held- she certainly won't in the day, just starts crying. Maybe it would work at night though.

She just pushes a dummy out if I put it in. Will suck a finger, or on DHs shoulder though!

I agree with Visualise (aka the voice of reason). I had similar problems OP at around 4m, and introduced a bottle at 11pm, and he then slept for 6 hours. Milk supply not affected. Then after a few weeks I bf him at bedtime instead of the bottle and he still slept for 6 hrs as a routine seemed to have developed. Worth a try.

Are you denying that we are animals now?

Biology and evolution are a key part of our motivations to act and behave.

In some cultures babies NEVER cry and the thought of it is shocking to mothers/women. They are kept close and fed on demand and there is no whinging about lack of sleep, and those mothers often are engaged in physical labour during the day.

In many of these cultures babies feed on average every 23 minutes, and the women just get on with their sleep/work/eating/showering whatever. They don't have the luxury of the additional stress of trying to make their baby behaviour against their biological instincts, nor do they rate their parenting ability on how many hours they have away from their baby.

Are you denying that we are animals now?

Biology and evolution are a key part of our motivations to act and behave.

In some cultures babies NEVER cry and the thought of it is shocking to mothers/women. They are kept close and fed on demand and there is no whinging about lack of sleep, and those mothers often are engaged in physical labour during the day.

In many of these cultures babies feed on average every 23 minutes, and the women just get on with their sleep/work/eating/showering whatever. They don't have the luxury of the additional stress of trying to make their baby behaviour against their biological instincts, nor do they rate their parenting ability on how many hours they have away from their baby.

Are you denying that we are animals now?

Biology and evolution are a key part of our motivations to act and behave.

In some cultures babies NEVER cry and the thought of it is shocking to mothers/women. They are kept close and fed on demand and there is no whinging about lack of sleep, and those mothers often are engaged in physical labour during the day.

In many of these cultures babies feed on average every 23 minutes, and the women just get on with their sleep/work/eating/showering whatever. They don't have the luxury of the additional stress of trying to make their baby behaviour against their biological instincts, nor do they rate their parenting ability on how many hours they have away from their baby.

oops

There is nothing wrong at all in wanting a bit of sleep at 4 months.

Projecting other situations into the OP isn't that helpful.

She only wants to get to three night wakings.

Babies needs are different to ours but they still need sleep, and they also need a functioning mother who isn't run into the ground with exhaustion either.

Thank you Bambam. Unfortunately, he needs replacement melatonin, but it isn't licenced for use for sleeping (not sure what it IS for though).

Mostly we just get by without him sleeping, though I need, and always have a good 9 hours. More or less I get it, and always have, even when each of my babies are little.

Sleep is extremely important to me and takes priority over everything, except my babies instincts. So it is the other things that have to go.

"How many hours they have away from their baby" really???

No. Sleep is important. But there are plenty of hours in the day to do it, if you're flexible and not too rigid about it.

Yes. Our culture is rife with messages that a good mother is one who is able to separate from her baby at the earliest opportunity, who has a baby who is 'independent' and who is able to 'self-settle' without her there.

Products are made for this purpose, and sold as if they will give the mother independence from her baby.

Picture of perfect homes are portrayed, as are women who have obviously found time to pluck their eyebrows.

We are animals who have learned to modify our own nature and behaviour, taking control of our lives in ways that other animals can't even comprehend.

In other words, it is silly to expect people to raise their children like animals do because we are animals, too.

Should we also leave them to their own devices once they start to walk? That seems to work for animals.

"Sleep is important. But there are plenty of hours in the day to do it"

Not all babies are like yours. Many don't let you sleep when they are awake.

Not all people are like you. Many can't just sleep whenever. (I can't sleep at all during the day, even with shutters closed and in complete silence, even if I haven't slept at all the night before. There have been about 5 exceptions to this, mostly when I had high fever)

You are being completely unreasonable with your judgemental posts here.