Considering giving up breastfeeding due to sleep issues - need honest input

[tinierclanger]

DD is 4 months old now and has never really slept well. Until a few weeks ago she occasionally slept 4 hours at the beginning of the night, but now the best she does is 3. She will then wake every 1 or 2 hours and want feeding back to sleep. We spend some of the night cosleeping but not all.

I have no problems feeding her, she is fed entirely on demand in the day and feeds about every 2 hours, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter. I don't want to stop but I am so drawn to the prospect of getting more sleep - some days I cope ok but others I am shattered and a horrible person to be around, affecting my relationship with DH and DS

My fear though is that if I start FF she will wake just as often and then I will have bottles to deal with. In all honesty is this likely or is she more likely to sleep in proper stretches, rather than waking to nibble on me? Obviously the main incentive is that I could get DH to do one night a week and I could just sleep...

[HaroldLloyd]

My hamster ate her babies.

[LadyEdith]

Perhaps in the UK it's the mothers that cry more.

[Mendeleyev]

I had this with my DD many years ago. She had never slept well and at 4 months was up hourly in the night for a feed. I read the baby whisperer and what I worked out was that I needed a bit of a routine to get her to sleep better in the day so she would sleep better at night. Nothing as strict as Gina Ford, just 4 hour repeats of wake up, feed, play, sleep. We also swaddled. Maybe I was lucky but within a week she was waking much less often at night -I can't remember how much exactly as it was 8 years ago - and by 6 months she was sleeping through. It seemed that getting more sleep in the day helped at night. She also didn't feed to sleep in the day, just used PUPD. Not too bad for me to do as I only had her and toddler DD1 I suppose if may be more difficult if you are having to take older children to school.

[LadyEdith]

Should we lick them when they're born too, and carry them by the neck with our teeth?

[CaptainUndercrackers]

Starlight - not denying that we're animals, no. But using unspecified 'other animals' as examples of why humans shouldn't have sleep issues is pretty pointless. As is using unspecified 'other cultures' where babies BF every 23 minutes. Well maybe they do. And maybe they have no sleep issues. But I bet they have myriad other problems which come from their culture, as do all human societies. There isn't a culture in the world which lives perfectly in tune with our biological imperatives, because humans aren't solely instinct-driven.
I do agree with you about the expectations placed on women to be the perfect mother/wife/worker etc etc. But I think the pressure of 24 BF/closeness/putting a babies needs above all others, including other children in the family, is as dangerous as the pressure to separate from baby unnecessarily. I am not going to sacrifice my need for sleep (and subsequent mental and physical health) on the altar of 'perfect motherhood' for the sake of a bottle of EBM or formula. Some babies sleep, some don't. If they don't then their parents (plural) need to work out strategies to ensure that everyone stays healthy and happy. That might be co-sleeping, might be PUPD or whatever.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

'I can't sleep at all during the day, even with shutters closed and in complete silence, even if I haven't slept at all the night before.'

So why is it okay for YOU to refuse to sleep when it is convenient to your baby, but not okay for your baby to not sleep when it is convenient to you?

Perhaps you should consider some sleep training or behaviour modification. You are old enough and educated enough to be able to understand the benefit, and why you need to be 'trained', unlike your baby.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I've explained about my children already. One was on the boob for 18 hours. I did struggle in those days enormously and the reason I know it was 18 hours is because I kept a diary as the HV didn't believe me.

Turns out it was a combination of tongue-time and ASD. I had 6 hours to accomplish everything other than feeding in each 24 hour period. It nearly killed me, but certainly put my other two babies needs into perspective.

[Sunnysummer]

Can you try ff for a week while pumping? I had two weeks on formula for medical reasons and was a bit sad to find that it didn't change DS's sleeping, but did wake me up more than rolling over to feed, and I missed having the extra soothing tactic of bfing.

That said, 5mo DS is currently regressing to waking up hourly, so I have no answers either - although things are improving with time and the No Cry Sleep Solution.

All babies are different - I get really frustrated when people talk about the cultures where ALL babies apparently don't cry - our DS has been worn in the sling and with me all the time, cosleeps on the few times he doesnt sleep in the sling, has been fed on demand all the freakin time, and still had hellish reflux, masses of colic and barely sleeps.

In the end, whatever keeps you and your baby healthy, happy and rested is best.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

'I am not going to sacrifice my need for sleep (and subsequent mental and physical health) on the altar of 'perfect motherhood' for the sake of a bottle of EBM or formula.'

No-one is asking you too. I never sacrificed my need for sleep. But I re-prioritised the other things in my life to make sure that I got my sleep, just not my babies demands.


A very simply way to get extra sleep is to go to bed when your partner comes in, having the baby brought to you for feeds, until midnight when you take over the baby care leaving your partner to get a good stretch of sleep.

Nothing wrong with EBM of formula when needed, though bottles can affect the way the pallet develops and the ease of access can encourage overeating or the overriding of the baby's appetite instinct as you can get more milk in, so it has to be a considered risk and the alternatives, as above should imo, at least be thought through first.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Animals don't need to be specified because I mean pretty much ALL animals.

[CoteDAzur]

"So why is it okay for YOU to refuse to sleep when it is convenient to your baby, but not okay for your baby to not sleep when it is convenient to you?"

Fuck off, Starlight

This is not about what is OK and it is not about what is convenient. It is about survival of mum and baby. If mum isn't functional, neither mum nor baby can survive.

So parents encourage baby to sleep longer stretches and then go through the night. There is no fucking medal for martyrs who reach clinical depression because they haven't slept for more than half an hour per night over several months. And their babies don't live to be rulers of the world while the ones who were sleep trained perish and die.

What happens is babies sleep through, they are happy and their parents are happy. The only ones who are not happy are judgy busybodies like you who think it is any of their business what loving parents do to encourage good sleeping habits in their children.

[bigkidsdidit]

Genuinely, I don't understand your 'you have 22 hours a day to sleep' post, starlight. Today I have taken DS1 to swimming, taken him to buy new shoes, cooked a healthy lunch, put something in the slow cooker for dinner. Soon I will change all the beds and take the boys to the park for a run about. These things are IMO important for the bringing up of healthy, active, clean children. When are you supposed to sleep in that? What about food shopping, cleaning, homework help? It's not all plucking eyebrows ffs

[HaroldLloyd]

Starlight your post to cote was really rude.

You are still projecting your own situation onto other people. It's really fantastic you can manage your family to sleep during the day. It's great you can switch off and cat nap.

Not everyone can.

Stop being so blinkered.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

It wasn't rude. You just disagree with it.

I wonder if you could explain why it is okay to insist on a baby to go against his/her natural sleeping patterns, but refuse to change your own.

Why are babies expected to make the change instead of you simply because you are bigger than them so can make them?

[Rooners]

I've heard of that study, Sunny. The one about attending faster to babies who cry in their first 6 months and the subsequent less crying in second 6 months.

I'm glad someone else has heard of it too, I keep referencing it without any backup!

Fwiw I have always tried to respond asap to them...I've had a moderate cryer, a non cryer (twice - literally twice in his first 6 months, that was I presume wind or pain of some sort) and a great cryer till about 3-4 weeks when it lessened very rapidly - I don't know what it was caused by and all the MWs and HVs I asked said 'it's normal' but I knew it wasn't...I had no way of knowing how to help him, but he was attended to instantly and fed on demand and slept by me all night every night.

I think, I hope, that I taught him not to be afraid, once whatever was hurting him stopped hurting, because though he was crying a lot in those first weeks, he was never ever alone doing it. Always held.

One HV said maybe he had a headache, I'm not sure - but anyway. He is calm and very un-cryish now (8mo) and very happy and he sleeps excellently, next to me, fed on demand.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

22 hours of is too much time to sleep. But if you took 8 of them, you'd still have 14 hours to do those other things you mentioned Bigkid.

Honestly, I don't understand this whinging about sleep. I REALLY don't.

I had probably the worst experience of everyone with my child with ASD. In fact the HV didn't even believe me as she'd never heard of it before, and yet, I STILL got 9 hours sleep in a 24 hour period. DD was born when ds was still under 2 and I STILL got 9 hours sleep. DS was born when the others were under 5 and I STILL got 9 hours sleep.

And everyone else can too, you just have to prepared to compromise a little and think a bit laterally.

[HaroldLloyd]

No, it was rude.

She's told you she struggled to sleep in the day and tried and you just twisted it to make a rather snidey dig.

[HaroldLloyd]

Oh bully for you. Is there a sleep depravation Olympics? Why don't you go and claim your gold medal.

If you don't understand all this whinging about sleep I can see no other reason for coming on this thread apart from trying to make people feel bad for wanting some sleep.

That's not really very nice is it.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

How could I have made the same important point in a way you wouldn't consider snidey?

The point is an important one. Why is okay for a baby to have their sleep patterned forcibly changed by an adult who says that they can't change their own? Seems a bit ridiculous.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

YOU are rude and twisting things.

There is NO reason why people can't have as much sleep as they want.

They are not asking for sleep. They are asking for their babies to sleep to their schedule.

[CoteDAzur]

The stuff you say on this thread makes you look like a complete moron with a horrible personality imho but since you seem to be OK with that, let's go along with it:

How would you like to sleep train me? I can't sleep easily, when I wake up I can't go back to sleep, and I can't possibly nap. Mum says I haven't since I was very tiny. How would you like to get me to nap? Tiredness doesn't work - I barely slept a wink in the night for DD's first four months and still couldn't nap.

Please Starlight. Sleep train me. Tell me what to do

Then we can go and try the same on my dad, who also can't possibly go back to sleep when he wakes. If he wakes up for something at 4 AM, he is up for the day. How do you think we should train him?

Then we can go on to DD (8), who hasn't had a single nap since she was 18 months old. Even when she was sick, even when she is jiggled around in the car for several hours. How would you like to sleep train her so she doesn't grow up to be a horrible mother like me who demands to have a little sleep in the night?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

And then they are 'pretending' that their baby not sleeping to their schedule means that they are deprived of sleep. When actually it is inflexibility on their part that is depriving them of sleep.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I don't know Cote, but if you have sleep problems, you are an adult, you do not have the biological need to feed or check that your mother is close. I suggest you go to your GP. Perhaps melatonin would help!?

But you knew I'd say that right?

[Rooners]

I have a slightly different angle in that I hate to see people being made mugs out of by the sleep training industry.

I really do.

It's like anything - someone publishes a book claiming to change your life and people queue up to buy it, and then there is a trickle down of pressure on other parents to do the same or they are missing out an important part of what their child needs.

It's an industry based on exploitation - the tiredness and the guilt of new parents make them very vulnerable imo to this sort of shite campaign.

Anyway. We're all at the mercy of marketing unless we know better.