From breast to bottle

[Esme]

Tom is 11 months and I'm still breast feeding him but desperate to stop. I cannot get him to take a cup or bottle although I have been trying since he was four months old. I'm starting to feel desperate. He is demanding five feeds a day, one first thing, mid morning, mid afternoon, bedtime and about 11pm at night. I'm exhausted and would love to have a bit of me time. I would welcome any suggestions or tips

Esme - my son never drank milk from a cup or bottle. Eventually I stopped the breastfeeding anyway, (10.5 mnths), on the assurance that he would then drink the milk ... but he never did! (He would then drink juice from a beaker.) I guess he just never liked formula or cow's milk. We just made sure he had plenty of cheese, yoghurt, fromage frais, milk on cereals, milk pudding etc., and didn't worry about it. He is now 3.5 and taller, stronger, and fitter than many 5 yr-olds, so I guess it didn't cause him any problems.

Esme, I do sympathise. Some babies are still keen on their breastfeeding by the time they get to Tom's age, others are beginning to go off the idea. My three closest friends all found their babies effectively self-weaned by age one, mine didn't. I did manage to get him down to one feed a day (bedtime), but it was hard because he didn't like bottles or cups either. This is what worked for me: the Playtex feeding system (available from independent pharmacies, not Boots etc alas) and Hipp Organic follow-on milk. The Playtex system does look very like a human nipple (be prepared for guffaws from your so-called friends!)and uses disposable bottle liners which are extremely tough and will go in the freezer with expressed breastmilk if you choose to do this. Hipp Organic (I have been told) is thinner and slightly sweeter than some other formulas, making it perhaps more like breastmilk. This was the only formula my son would take and it did him very well until he could start cow's milk.
Good luck. Maybe our Eulalia will have some extra tips to contribute!

I had the same problem with my second child. My eldest drank gallons of milk - he didn't care if it came from breast, bottle or cup, as long as it came in large quantities! My daughter was entirely different. She refused to drink any milk other than directly from the breast. At 9 months I had to wean her (I was about to go away for 4 days to do a sponsored cycle ride)and was worried that she would suffer. Eventually we came to the conclusion that she just didn't like milk all that much (she seemed to prefer juice), so we made sure she had plenty of yoghurt etc to make up for the milk she wasn't drinking. When the breast was no longer on offer she gradually started to drink more milk, and now (at 16 months) has a large bottle first thing, and a few ounces before bed. She's still not a great milk lover though, and if she sees her brother getting juice instead makes it very clear she'd rather have that! She's a perfectly healthy child - I guess my advice would be to stay relaxed and offer as many alternatives as you can.

My daughter would never take a bottle (or a dummy)and broke her daddy's heart because he so wanted to give her a bottle of expressed milk at two weeks old. The Xmas before I went back to work I fought for two weeks with her (at Five she's still just as stubborn) and eventually gave up. She went straight to a cup and had expressed milk from it until my child minder said she was just as happy with juice. So I fed her morning, early evening and bed time, gradually weaning out the first two until only night remained -- until she was 2.5 (I'm not recommending this - in fact I did get exasperated about it but it just seemed easiest at the time) I worried about the milk free day times but hey we have to find something to worry about don't we?

I stopped breast fidding when my daughter was 20 months old. It was very easy. She loved her teddy bear like cup with a straw. She never drunk from the bottle. Whatever you do think about the baby, not what is easer for you. Every thing is easy when your baby is happy.

I found my son took readily to a bottle, but only with a very slow flow teat (the sort you use for very young babies). I think this is because breast fed babies are used to sucking pretty hard, which means they tend to gag and choke when given faster flow teats. He is 4 months now, but still using new born teats.
I have heard lots of conflicting advice about when to introduce bottles - my midwife said not for at least 8 weeks, even for expressed milk, whilst my health visitor says that if you intend to use bottles at all, you should introduce them before 4 weeks. Does anyone have a definitive answer?

Like CI from 15 August, I believe that the advice to wait to introduce the bottle is wrong & can cause much unnecessary strife. I have many friends who have introduced a bottle early (2-3 weeks) and now happily breastfeeding, but have a refreshing modicum of freedom.

You have to keep it up, though. Our little girl took a bottle at 2 weeks, but we didn't persevere and now, at 6 months, won't entertain the idea at all. We've tried various teats, cups (valves/no valves), different times of day, hungry/not hungry, to no avail. I'm going back to work in two weeks and beginning to despair. We are considering the "mummy-leaves-baby-with-daddy-for-a-day" tactic with trepidation. It can only be painful all round.

Help!!!

Jennys, I tried leaving our 2 year old (10 months at the time) with my husband to do the same thing, good idea but unfortunately my husband has little patience. It took about 24 hours for me to do it which mean't not much sleep but it was worth it, make a decision to do it then do it. Others may suggest to bypass the bottle and use feeder cups, probably a good idea as now she is 2 and still has the bottle! Good luck.

Jennys, as you can see from my earlier post, you don't have to leave your daughter all day. I just hid upstairs (hoover on as I hated the screams) whilst it was feeding time. For the next few days I got my husband to give my daughter her bottle once a day. Next time I will begin bottle feeding earlier. Good Luck.

Thanks Kate & Jac. We had a dreadful day yesterday - I witheld breastfeeding until the evening, which was horrible and didn't work. Then she took so much milk from me she was sick. We started again today, but have given up - she's not suckled on the teat once and doesn't look like she's going to. My husband and I were also both getting very upset. We're off to the shops now to buy various beakers...

Jenny I am really sorry you had such a bad day. Hope you find the answer soon. Kate

Message withdrawn

Jennys, I had the same problem with my second daughter, when she was 4.5 months. I was about to go back to work, and also had a 2yr old, and was too tired with the feeding. Unfortunately it just turned into one long battle. What finally worked was sitting her in a chair facing me, and giving her bits of milk from a spoon, at the same time as her food. This seemed to get her used to the taste. She eventually started to use a bottle - the avent with a slow flow teat worked best, but was never really keen, and the bottle got dropped at 14 months. To all those who say if you persevere it will work - with my eldest I offered a bottle at the same time of day for a week. We had screams and tears to start with, but then she just decided to take the bottle. This does reflect their personalities, my eldest is a lot more easy going, my youngest will never do anything she doesn't want to. It sounds like you just have a very strong willed baby. On the bright side, my youngest is also extremely loving - if she likes you, and the friends of ours who she takes to are all proud to be on her 'A' list!

Jenny S I am a bit confused surely you give your daughter water to drink from a beaker with her food? If so isn't she used to a beaker anyway? Isn't the advice to give beakers when you start weaning at around 4 months.

I agree that it is pointless trying to move onto a bottle at about 6 months as a child can sit up on its own then and may as well get used to a cup anyway. Despite soft teats and all the rest of it, it is impossible trying to get a bottle to be remotely anything like the breast. Remember that breastfeeding is more than just feeding it is about comfort as well. Not giving comfort when she needs it may be just confusing particularly if she is hungry at the same time! Try giving her milk in another form but make sure you give her a cuddle afterwards so she doesn't feel rejected. Weaning should be a gradual process. As I say nothing can replicate breastfeeding so you might as well make it as different as possible (as Bloss says). If you are going back to work you can still b/feed part time and then worry about weaning from the part time feeds later rather than trying to do it all at once. My friend went back to work full time, she b/fed morning, tea time and bedtime (and fulltime at weekends). The baby only needed one lunch time milk feed as the rest of the time he had solid food. I also know someone who used to mix formula powder into a paste and mix it with banana for instance hence feeding the milk as a solid food. This is probably totally against any kind of guidelines though, but if the baby drinks water at the same time I don't see it as a problem. Another way to look at it is that by 6 months babies only need 4-5 milk feeds in 24 hrs so if you give 3 of them yourself at home then you are only looking at 1-2 feeds. I would think that one of those feeds could be given as yoghurt/cheese so this only leaves getting one beaker of milk into her a day. I am sure you will find that once you are at work and she is thirsty enough she will take from cup sure enough.

Esme: have you tried going out into a different environment? I find that b/f is highly contextual. When I am at my parents my son can go the whole day without. Try not to hurry it, remember if you weren't b/feeding you'd still have to give him attention in another form. Often it is the b/feeding that is blamed when it is just the case that a young baby in itself is exhausting. It depends how you look at it. B/feeding need not be exhausting if you take time out and lie down with a book and him latched on. If you don't have time for this don't be afraid to unlatch him after 5 mins and distract him with something. Sometimes this is all they need and it is just a comfort feed. 5 mins a few times a day somehow doesn't seem so daunting now does it?

Starling - the reason why HV say no bottles early on is that giving bottles in preference to breast can affect the supply of milk. Your body needs lots of stimulation to produce milk in the early weeks. However in one sitting you can quite easily breast feed FIRST and then offer a bottle afterwards but generally most don't bother because it is just more work which you don't want during those first few weeks! So most leave it till after 8 weeks anyway and baby should pick up on a bottle ok then. However you can start straight away with a bottle once a day (using expressed milk in the first week weeks). Also your HV has not made the point about expressed milk clearly enough. If you express milk then using the pump will have stimulated your body anyway so this is actually an ideal way of combining the benefits of keeping up your supply, giving baby your own milk and getting baby used to the bottle. It is useful too if you want to go out and have a few drinks.

Thanks everyone - I'm still trying with the beaker.

Eulalia - unfortuntely she is not used to a beaker, as she is not really taking solid food yet either (ref my requests for advice under another heading...). Its been difficult enough over the last 2 months to get her to her current stage of taking two or three spoonfuls of solid food, so I've only just started to intro. water. I've needed to be v. patient & v. persistent and do one thing at a time.

The problems are clearly inter-related. Given her age and her v. low solid intake, she is feeding more frequently - 7am, 9, 11, 2pm, 4 & 6.30... ish, so its not just a case of replacing one feed. I am certainly going to keep up the first and last feeds on my four days at work and fully b/f the other days - I am v. sad to be having to go to work and give up any feeds (we have started to do the lottery).

I think Debsb hit the nail on the head - I have a very strong willed baby (she certainly seems to know when its milk in the beaker). I'm just going to continue being persistent & patient.. I'll keep you posted.

...actually, can anyone help here..? Now that she is starting to take water (currently from an Avent bottle cap) will I have problems transferring this to a beaker? or will she confuse this with the new way of having milk (from a beaker, once established)? (Problem is that everything is a challenge as my daughter is generally resistant to anything that's not breast).

Jennys, what do you mean by a avent bottle cap? I would try and lessen the breast milk, I know it's easier said than done, but I'm having similar problem with 2 year old trying to get her to eat more rather than just drinking bottles of milk. Last night I put bottles in dishwasher and said that's it NO MORE BOTTLES! This morning we had tantrums resulting in me putting her down for her sleep early and she cried in the cot for about half an hour before going to sleep. She woke in a reasonable mood and a little while later I did her some food, which she ate a good amount then a yoghurt. She hasn't eaten a yoghurt for ages. They just get too full up on milk to eat anything, but I know it's always the easiest thing to do to get a bottle or breast feed when you're tired and they're 'hungry'.

If you intend on b'feeding morning and evening then I would just do it, no feeding in the day, it may take some days for her to get used to it, but the less she takes the more hungry for food she will be. Express your milk so she won't be sick. Eulalia has better advice on this, I was useless at feeding. I realise this is very stressful as I said earlier I had the same problem brom breast to bottle and now I,m having it again with bottle to cup. It's not forever I keep saying and we'll look back and laugh, you've got to!!

It is extremely hard I know but it's that boring word that I kept getting from the HV perserverance x 10 I'm afraid. But I promise it will work (eventually). Good luck

I think Jennys means the cap that covers a bottle. I used to use this for water for my son as he didn't like drinking out of a bottle. I see your problem now Jennys but I think she will drink more when you are not there to breastfeed her. Could you try a trial run and go out for an afternoon and see how someone else gets on? She should settle down with her feeding pattern once you are away and will take more from you when she sees you. The problem is she doesn't know you are going back to work! Some babies who sleep with their mothers take a lot of breastmilk at night and hardly need much during the day.

I am in two minds about the amount of breast milk. On the one hand yes they should be eating solids to get more nutrients, get used to chewing, etc etc but on the other hand it is better that she is having that than nothing at all or filling up on biscuits. I have problems getting my son to eat much most days (he is 20 months) but he is extremely healthy and I think that is what counts the most. I tend to make sure that the things he does eat are nutritious and are easy to eat - sticks of cheese for example. I also pack a lot into a meal such as mashing a banana into yoghurt and mixing this with fortified powdered cereal. Also a bit of Marmite mixed into soup will make it more nutritious.

Anyway to return to you Jenny. You could try different beakers for juice/water and for milk if you are worried about confusion but I'd guess it is the device itself she is reacting against. Does she like to hold a beaker? She is still quite young to be having much solids as 6 months is ok for a baby to just start with solids but I can see your problem if you are not going to be there all day. Does he have breakfast?

Thanks again. I've made some progress with the solid food over the last 2 or 3 days - she's now taking a few teapsoons that I sneak into her mouth whilst she's playing with another spoon. This is at 11 and 6, but I think that it may indeed be a good idea to introduce a breakfast - although she isn't taking much, she seems to be responding to calm persistence & it would be good to fill her up more.

Also good idea on slipping nutrients in - thanks. I'll definately try this - actually just tonight I stuck some yoghurt in with her fruit and she didn't object (though she seems to have a tummy ache now - I've been writing this on and off for half and hour in between cries...)

Eulalia - some success on the beaker today - after your thoughts yesterday I introduced it today with water after her solids and she held it well (she's used to playing with one) and actually drank some water, to my surprise. I tried milk in a different beaker later and she played again and drank abit. Challenge now is to get her to do it when she's hungry (she won't touch the beaker then).

Anyway, some progress and all the advice is useful - thanks.

Can I add another query, please? Which beaker/cup have people found to be best and when can I introduce it?

We're currently in the transition stage of breast to bottle and have found that our daughter who is 11 weeks old really only likes the Avent disposable system teats- probably because I use it for expressing so that if for some reason we don't get round to the daily bottle it can be frozen. She's just given me a series of miserable days with the non-disposable system which in my post-pregnancy brain wisdom I thought I'd try! I remember the midwife at the antenatal classes said that it is possible to go from breast to the Avent soft spouted cup/beaker but can't remember at what stage.

I'm back to work in 4.5 weeks (aaargh) and am keen to get her used to something other than mummy in the next few weeks. Or do I just persist with the Avent disposable system and not get too ambitious?

Hi Duck,
The first and best beaker that I tried was the Heinz soft spout beaker ( available everywhere )I used it from when my baby was about 11 weeks - it says from 3 months on the packaging I think. She would never have a bottle after about 6 weeks but loved her cup and managed it fine because it has such a gentle flow. I used to freeze my milk in an ice cube tray so anyone could pop a couple of cubes or some water into it when I was away. Worked really well for us and as I never used a bottle when I stopped b/feeding at 12months she went to bed fine with a cup of water in her hand, still does! Good luck...

Duck - my HV recommended the anywayup cup, which she said was good for babies who have breastfed and are used to having to work for their milk (though my friend's child took very well to a soft spout as well). It's good because they don't get choked by milk pouring down their throat. My daughter only started on a cup a week before she went to nursery, but once there soon got the hang of it. (She was about 6 months though). By the way does anybody know how I can now wean her off this cup???

Thanks everyone for all your tips and observations regarding my little darling's refusal to give up his favourite hobby breast feeding. Tom has now reached the grand old age of one and still shows no signs of wanting to give up the breast and still shows no interest in his cup (I've completely given up on the bottle) although I will definitely try the playtex feeding system and Hipp formula. I have however had a modicum of success and have managed to cut back on feeds to breast before bed at about 7pm and breast at around five in the morning. (Tom always seems to wake at this time - I know I should just leave him to cry it out but it always seems easier to just feed him and then get back to sleep). I make sure that Tom gets plenty of cheeds and yogurt. I feel a lot better but Tom doesn't appear to have forgotton about his missed feeds and he often has screaming fits at the moment they are about twice daily. During these he won't be comforted and refuses any substitue such as a beaker (in case he's thirsty), his favourite food (in case he's hungry). Cuddling h seems to make him worse as he trys to get in a feeding position. I'm sure its comfort that he wants but associates this with breastfeeding. It breaks my heart to have to put him through this day after day and it can take around an hour before he cheers up. Has anyone got any pointers for me or experienced anything similar?

Rozzy- thankyou for your reassurance. I hope to feed morning and night when I go back to work but think that expressing at work on a regular basis might be a bit difficult given the nature of my job. However, it's only part time so I'll express on my days off.

Lizzer- thankyou for the advice. The freezer is filling up with bags but I like the idea of ice cubes for small amounts.

Catht-thankyou for your help. Anyway up cups sound a brilliant idea!

Your support is much appreciated. Will let you know how we get on...........