When did you accept defeat?

[metalelephant]

...

My DD is 5 weeks old, and it's been 5 weeks of distress and what now seems like pointless struggle.

From day one, the pain was unbearable. She had a small mouth, my nipples were thick and she wouldn't open wide enough so every minute of breastfeeding was a biting agony. Tongue tie was diagnosed and it was snipped at 12 days.

Before that, every midwife trust visited at home thought her latch was fine, the consultant at the breastfeeding cafe thought the same. So we persevered.

She would feed for around 40 minutes, often more. In the evenings she would cluster feed. At some point she started fussing and crying on the breast.

At 17 days she was still below birthweight, so the paed said we had to top up with formula. He wanted me to offer the breast for 15 minutes and then a bottle; I instead breastfed for half an hour and only then gave her the top up. She drank a lot of formula, seemed hungry even after longer breastfeeding but she did out weight in and we were told ( by a midwife that told me the baby was using me as a dummy) to continue giving her formula.

I went to a different breastfeeding cafe where I was told the positioning was wrong. All this time I had been assured of the opposite.

Still, I persevered breastfeeding my baby, while my breasts felt more and more empty. The helplines and the midwifes I saw in person said that's natural and nothing to worry about. But having already tried and failed with my first, and resorting to expressing, I knew this degree of emptiness wasn't normal.

So 4 days ago I started taking domperidone, it has made a small difference but still my DD latches softly and only drinks when I press the breast. The private LC we saw on Tuesday, ( 2 days ago) diagnosed a recessed jaw that causes a shallow latch and recommended a cranial osteopath. Which is what we did yesterday, she was lovely but it was hard to hear my baby cry loudly while massaged.

This morning, once again, we spent a half hour of screaming, till I gave her her bottle.

It's been 5 weeks of despair, of crying I front of my son, of seeing my mother and husband upset and worried by the state I'm in.

I was so certain we would make it, now it looks like I have lost 5 weeks of my baby's life being too busy trying to feed her rather than enjoy her. And it would be worth it if it had worked, but we still seem to be at the start... What would you do?

:( :(

Such a sad story - you have worked so hard but despite that, the help you have had sounds confusing and underinformed.

It is never right to say to a woman in pain with a distressed baby struggling with weight issues that things are ok - because they are not.

It sounds like formula was needed, because bf had not got off the ground - but the drawback of formula is that it undermines bf and if it is a lot of formula (every feed?) then breastfeeding shuts up shop....the baby may continue to hang out at the breast for comfort but the previous issues with milk transfer persist and milk is not made because it is not stimulated.

To rescue breastfeeding now needs you to relactate, I think....with all the hard work and struggle that implies. You can google relactation and see if this is something you want to do, or ask the LC who can explain.

Breastfeeding is not the be-all and end-all of mothering - you can mother your baby and love her and respond to her and support her security and her emotional development....and formula feed as well. Health concerns are not the only factor in deciding what to do (if they were, then obv it would be bf that wins) and your life and your happiness and confidence matter as well - to you and your baby.

Your choice is to relactate - with a proper plan that boosts your confidence and your enjoyment, if possible - or to start enjoying formula feeding, and only you can decide. When the dust settles, think about writing to complain about the lack of informed help, too.

Hope you get support for whatever decision you make, metal.

Oh I really for you as I went thru a similar situation with my ds who is now 2.

I spent the first 4 weeks trying to breastfeed and my ds never managed to latch on. I looked to help in the hospital (stayed in extra day to ask for more help from mw) then to my health visitors, then to 2 breastfeeding counsellors. I still had no luck after all, he just couldnt do it. I tried at every feed, but it was very distressing to hear him get so upset. I initially expressed to feed him but then moved onto formula as I didn't have enough expressed milk.

Although our circumstances are different in some ways, I did have the upset, guilt, weight gain dilemma, etc that you face now. No one will tell you when to give up trying, I wished they had with me but I realise it's a personal thing. If you know that emotionally you, your baby and rest of the family will be less stressed and enjoy your early months with your baby more by giving up breastfeeding then the time may have come...

I was certainly relieved, less stressed, more relaxed once I made that decision. I only knew that time had come when it wasnt getting any easier to do it, I'd ran out of options on the advice front and for my mental health things had to change.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.. xx

Tiktok thank you again, i just don't understand what it takes to convince my baby to actually suck!.. She just moves her little jaw lightly and seems to wait for the milk instead of actively sucking. The osteopath said that due to her recessed jaw and neck tension she isn't free to suck, but part of me wonders how much can actually change after 5 weeks.

What destroys be is to see her root, and to feel unable to satisfy her most basic need. And I love the act of breastfeeding, to me it's the warmest embrace between a mother and her baby, and being denied that is just cruel.

I have been expressing when my dh is here, but I can't do it 6 times a day, dd screams if I put her down, and I really don't want to put her down, I love to have her in my arms. Once fed, she loves to sleep on my chest, only I feel like my body has failed us both.

Domperidone gave me hope, but , unless she latches on properly it's not enough is it?

Thank you msgicrabit, what worries me is that after my first baby refused the nipple ( looong story but he just screamed his little face off when put on the breast) I still feel sad about it and even at 3, I look at him and wish we had been able to breastfeed.

So I don't know if this failure too will ever pass, or I'll just always regret and miss it and envy the other mums that can.

Sorry for ruining your lovely name magicrabbit, I have an evil iphone that corrects words to death.

You say she's suck's lightly then seem's to just expect milk. I take it your toping up using a bottle, there is a possiblity she's doesn't know she need's to work a bit harder at getting milk form the breast and is expecting it quikly like she would from a bottle.

If you really do want to give it another go it maybe worth getting rid of the bottles and topping up using a supplimentry nusring system, it's a cappilery tube you attach to the nipple so she can suck at the breast and get milk plus stimulate your supply at the same time.

As ticktok say's you will need help from some with a plan though to get things going.

I only lasted 3 weeks before I admitted defeat. I HATED breastfeeding and the pain that came with it. Like you, my family were getting worried and I was spending more time in tears than not. I was just desperate for someone (well actually my lovely mum who happens to be a nurse and ex midwife!) to just say 'thats enough'. And when I did swap to formaul it was like a switch to happiness! I love feeding my DS with a bottle and we still have the closeness etc.

I think that if you really want to persevere with BF please do. I know lots of people who pushed on through and now love it. But there is no point in being a martyr to breastfeeding because it really is not the be all and end all.

It really is ok to FF - I NEVER thought I would but here I am, absolutely loving being a mummy to my adorable, happy, thriving, healthy son!

You sound like you really want to breastfeed. If so, then the first thing I would say is try either a cup to feed or theqe is a feeding suplimenter you can use. Bfttles are much easier for them to drink from, which is why she isn't wanting to work at the breast. On top of that, a bit of a babymoon would be good - skin to skin, in bed, snuggled up. In the bath together can be good too. Express - pump or manually - as much as possible, it doesn't matter so much if you get any milk out, its the stimulation that will help up supply. Put baby to the breast for as long as possible each time. Keep going to the cranial osteopath, try to arrange another visit to a lactation consultant. Oats are supposed to help milk supply, and fenegeek.
Best of luck, sending lots of love your way. X

Oh metalelephant so sorry to hear that you've been through all that. I know a bit what you're going through. My DS struggled to latch we're still struggling with weight gain now and also had a TT (snipped at 3 months) he's 5 months now, I too have seen multiple midwives, health visitors, lactation consultants, surgeon for the TT divide, breast feeding counsellors and paediatricians. We're mixed feeding which isn't what I want but have no other way of keeping him gaining weight.

I know how you feel when you are so desperate to keep feeding, you just want someone to help you make it work.

I really don't have any suggestions for you other than what others have already said but wanted you to know there's support on here if/ when you need it.

Thanks everybody, things are tough but it helps to get your support. What concerns me about the supplementing Medela system is that, even when I have milk, DD won't actually latch, so unless she learns to do that there won't be a difference.
I do let her on the breast as long as she likes, she tends to fall asleep on it which makes leaving the house hard. I don't have plans to do much outside, but it would be nice to know we could go for a walk, or take my eldest to the park...

I guess I will try to express at night, when DH is here, hopefully my milk won't dry out completely.

I really appreciate both the advice on continuing to try, and also the reassurance on formula feeding; I guess only time will tell.

I've admitted defeat 3 times out of 4

Please do everything you can to keep bf if that's what you want. From personal experience, when it becomes the be all and end all - your sole raison d'etre, then it is time to stop but only you know where that point is.

It has taken me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I don't bf very well (DD1 is 14!) and I still think it's a work in progress

If it matters to you that much then keep going - I can empathise absolutely with feeling it is cruel to miss out on that mother baby bond. FWIW, ds is nearly 18wks and I still feed him skin to skin sometimes so he doesn't miss out on all the snuggling that goes with bf. There are ways and means to replicate some of the things that you would otherwise miss with ff.

I really hope that your bf relationship turns a corner soon. And if it doesn't... 5wks is a really good start.

Perhaps not the advice you're looking for, but what I did was stop. :( I struggled on for 6 weeks, spent several nights crying in bed because it hurt so much and I couldn't get DD to feed properly. And then I thought, this is crazy. I'm miserable, I'm making everyone around me miserable, and I started to resent every feed and cry from a little girl who deserved so much better from me.

So I sent DP out to buy formula. Oh I felt rotten, it was like sending him out to buy MacDonalds for her. But DD had no issues with it, and it gave me the relief I needed. In the end, I did combined feeding for 2 more months which worked well for me.

Do I wish I could've done more? Yes. But I tried so hard and in the end, I gave it to her in the early weeks when it mattered most, so I did give her a great start.

GL, I know what you're going through and how much self doubt and guilt it brings. Just remember that feeding is only one small part of parenting and it's not the end of the world if you can't carry on further than this. Be proud of what you've done so far but don't carry on at the expense of your own sanity.

How are you doing today metalelephant?

I've been thinking about you a lot as I know how you feel so very well.

Hello buttonmoon, thanks for your message, I guess I'm very much the same, sad yet unwilling to give up .

When I see her little face as she's feeding, it's just the best feeling, even though I know she's not latching well and that a bottle will follow. I just can't find the time to express more than 4 times per day, and despite the domperidone my breasts feel empty for a big part of the day.

Sorry, I keep repeating myself, it's like groundhog day here, I'm constantly washing the bloody pump or the bottles, and then trying to squeeze milk out to my little baby. I'm sick of staying in all the time, i don't want guests to see me struggling so don't invite anybody over. And yet, I dread having to stop.

Metalelephant - i really feel for you. Last time DS1 I really struggled and in the end it was my lovely mum who said enough was enough, feeds were just a tear fest for me and him and it was so distressing. I did regret it for a while but now looking at it logically I think the staying in, tears etc added to my PND (not suggesting for a minute this will happen to you just sharing my experience)

This time DS2 (6 weeks) and i'm having similar problems, still trying and like you love looking down seeing him feeding (on the rare occassion its a peaceful feed and not him screaming, pulling off etc). This time i'm able to be a bit more confident that I will make the right decision based on the circumstances.

As for not inviting people over, have you a good friend who has children? Just had a similar conversation with my very good friend. Supposed to be going to her next week for the day but on the brink of cancelling as do not want her to see me struggle, but she pointed out that she's been there and done that with her 2, she might be able to help or at least offer moral support and keep me in constant supply of tea and cake.

I really hope that things settle down for you soon.

Metaelephant,
My DD is 12wks old. What you're saying really resonates with me, and I really feel for you.
My experience is very different to yours (EMCS, very overdue strong baby, effectively straight into a 2week old's growth spurt, inverted nipples, couldn't position her correctly), and I persevered for three weeks, feeding from one side and expressing from the other. But I was so miserable - the pain was excruciating, she wasn't making back her birth weight, and all I was focussing on was feeding her and obsessing about milk, but resenting her and being scared of her being anywhere near me in case she wanted to feed. DH was frightened that I was getting PND as all I was doing was crying, and was almost scared I was going to do DD some harm as I was so frustrated with it all and in so much pain. So I took the decision to mix feed her - expressing what I could, and giving formula, but feeding her from bottles. And it magically changed everything for us: I could enjoy my little girl. My HV told me that a happy mummy makes a happy baby.
However no-one can make this decision for you, no-one can give you permission. You have to do this on your own.
Tiktok (and Rita, if she comes along) give amazing advice on this subject. I think if you want to relactate, then your little girl will need to relearn to latch, and that will take some serious perseverance, not that you should be frightened of that. But it is not the end of the world if you do give up; you can keep expressing and giving her your milk this way (every ounce counts); or you can keep trying to bf, and I'm sure you would succeed. But only you can decide this.
I think my post maybe sounds like I am trying to persuade you to stop - I am not. I absolutely believe in bf and it breaks my heart that I'm not doing it and couldn't manage it. But my head is clear now and it wasn't before.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do x

Hello Jennifer and dribble and Ciske, thank you for sharing your stories with me, it's just so hard sometimes isn't it? And o ly tr other day, at a breastfeeding cafe I had to listen to a mum that was going on about how unnatural and carcinogenic cow's milk is and why do people give it to their babies... And she wasn't even being mean, she was genuinely expressing concern but I just felt like putting my head down and not explain " some of us just can't".

It really helps me to get your support, good luck to both those that ff and bf, it's all about our babies' happiness and health, isn't it. I hope to be able to write more positive posts at some point, whether we continue this strained mix feeding or not.

Thank you xx

Don't forget it's about your happiness and health too metal. Good luck with whatever you choose.

I didn't give up (breastfed until nearly a year). But looking back I am thinking that if I had known as I know now what the underlying problem was (dd's hypotonia), I might have given up and that might actually have been better
for both of us. At any rate I would have stopped blaming myself for doing things wrong, which would have been a start.

As it was it took an intensive programme of syringe feeding with ebm on top of the usual feeds to get dd's strength up to a point where she could start feeding actively. I was luckier than you in that my supply never diminished, so I didn't have that to contend with as well; I was able to express without great difficulty. But even so, it was hard work. Impossible to tell anyone else how they should choose. Not convinced I made the right choice.

That sounds like a very difficult time Cory, I hope your lo is doing better now.

What I find really tough is that whichever way it goes, I'll either inflict a degree of harm to my loved ones (that see me depressed and suffer along) or to my relationship to my daughter and her well being. The emotional aspect of breastfeeding is so important to me, the bottle seems like a barrier between us. And, sadly, I think I'll only be sadder if I stop, and will wonder if things would have improved if I waited longer.

I'm sorry of I sound whiny and corny and unresponsive...it really helps to talk about it here, thanks everybody for your warm posts, it's really appreciated xx

only you can decide but you can bond even though your bottle feeding. if I'm honest i enjoyed ds1 more once I'd stopped breast feeding, as i wasn't so upset all the time. that's not to say i didn't have my wobble's and regrets. not saying you should give up but you need to be kind to yourself also. have you spoken to your health visitor about how your feeling?

I don't know if this will help but DD had a recessed jaw as well and although her latch was good on top, she would effectively spit out the nipple and then pinch it underneath. The pain was incredible, like someone slicing through the lower half of my nipple with knives!

At first I put up with it (bad advice, I was told that you grow out of bf pain!), but then got some advice on here and started practicing the exaggerated latch. Everytime she latched on badly, I re-latched her correctly. It took two weeks (from week 7 to week 9) for her to change her habits and I haven't had any pain since.

I also played around with positions. I had less pain with the cradle position on the left breast, so I did the rugby hold on the right to copy the angles, etc.

Finally I think that what also helped was that her head and mouth grew and physically it became easier for her to latch, although the pain for the first 7 weeks was seriously bad and I don't think you should feel bad if you can't take it anymore.

I know you're right dribbleface, it's just that I still regret not managing to breastfeeding my son ( refused the nipple after traumatic start when the midwife shoved his face to my breast repeatedly while he screamed expressed exclusively for four months and hated that pump with a vengeance!)
That sadness is still with me, 3 years later, and I still miss what we could have had.

Saying that, please don't think I'm anti formula, I'm not - and have never doubted the amazing bond with my own mum who never breastfed me.

Booboostoo, we had awful pain for 12 days (felt like a tiny piranha was chomping on my nipple) but it practically went away when her tongue tie was snipped.
But I think that maybe her nipple chomping was the reason for her poor weight gain too, so it's a vicious cycle.

It gives me hope to hear that it got better, if only I still have milk for a few more weeks.